Community Council Minutes 20080311

IRC log, Community Council Meeting 2008-03-11, 19:00 UTC

Attendees

• Stefan Taxhet (stx12)
• Martin Hollmichel (_Nesshof__)
• André Schnabel (Thalion72)
• Louis Suarez-Potts (louis_to) (chair)
• Matthias Huetsch (mhu)
• Cor Nouws (CorNouws)
• Pavel Janík (paveljanik)
• John McCreesh (jpmcc)

• Sophie Gautier (sophi) could not attend

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IRC meeting commences 19:00 UTC (more or less)

14:59 louis_to hello all
14:59 CorNouws good evening
14:59 louis_to sorry for late notice
14:59 louis_to but appreciate that you could make it
15:00 louis_to shall we set a hard time limit on this meeting? I propose not longer than 1 hour
15:00 paveljanik +1
15:00 CorNouws +1
15:00 _nesshof_ +1
15:01 stx12 sounds good to me 
15:01 louis_to Thalion72?
15:01 Thalion72 +1
15:01 CorNouws mhu wrote he had to finish his lunch, and would arrive in about 10 min (from now)
15:02 louis_to okay, I'l ;assume that mhu is excited by that possibility
15:02 louis_to ah
15:02 louis_to we can start, anyway, with quick summary of john's post on budget holders
15:02 louis_to you are all familiar with it?
15:02 Thalion72 yes
15:02 CorNouws yep
15:02 paveljanik yes
15:03 louis_to the issues/objections were not very substantial. I raised the idea of other categories. Ie, education funds
15:03 louis_to Andre raised the logistics of ESC/developer approval
15:04 louis_to (and I just noted that john is not quite here yet)
15:04 *** jpmcc (n=user@92-235-187-79.cable.ubr18.edin.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined the channel
15:04 louis_to hi john
15:04 louis_to I'll send you oin sidechannel the issue so far
15:04 jpmcc evening all
15:05 louis_to ->jpmcc: hi
15:05 paveljanik Hi John
15:05 CorNouws Hi
15:05 jpmcc apologies - took ages to log on to irc
15:05 louis_to no problem
15:06 louis_to so, I summarized the issues; logistical, mostly, and also query on adding new budget categories
15:06 CorNouws jpmcc: that's because your hate irc .. revence of the system
15:06 stx12 and I would like to raise that the ESC is supposed to hold two budgets (Developer and Infrastructure). I think infrastructure  belongs to the council as it covers not only development. Whereas "Developer" is a perfect fit for the ESC.
15:07 louis_to stx12: would you mean the ESC has total determination over that budget? 
15:07 paveljanik stx12: +1 to that idea.
15:07 paveljanik ESC for development, CC for infrastructure
15:07 Thalion72 +1
15:07 louis_to what kind of things would development include?
15:07 CorNouws +1 as Pavil explains
15:08 stx12 no, i would like to change "Budget Holder: To be appointed by ESC " to appainted by COuncil" for Infrastructure
15:08 paveljanik I do not like "to be appointed"...
15:09 stx12 so you would like to see qa cc member as budget holder? fine with me
15:09 paveljanik I think it is one additional level of references.
15:09 stx12 the question is whether is has to be a member or a delegate of the committee.
15:10 CorNouws prefer member: shorter lines, less extra coordination
15:11 * Thalion72 seconds CorNouws
15:11 stx12 fine with me for the budget holder; others? 
15:11 * stx12 is counting...
15:11 jpmcc +1
15:11 Thalion72 +1
15:11 louis_to stx12: I'd like to see the final wording
15:12 _nesshof_ stx12: +1
15:13 louis_to eg, Infrastructure: Budget Holder: to be appointed by the CC; aurhorisers: two project leads proposed by budget holder and accepted by CC. Discussions on project leads (?) Budget: X?
15:14 CorNouws "The Budget Holder for Infrastructure is choosen by the council from one of it's members"
15:14 louis_to I'm fine with the changes; I just am curious about what further counts as "development"
15:14 Thalion72 Infrastructure: Budget Holder: Member of the C, to be appointed by the CC; aurhorisers: two project leads proposed by budget holder and accepted by CC. Discussions on project leads and / or discuss@council ; Budget: 10,000.00?
15:15 paveljanik +1
15:15 stx12 authorisers: two members from the project leads group or from CC or from ESC
15:15 louis_to for infra? that's fine
15:15 louis_to +1
15:15 jpmcc stx12 amendment +1 ... let's spread the responsibilities.
15:16 Thalion72 +1 for stx12's suggestion
15:16 CorNouws +1
15:17 CorNouws Question: is ¨authorisers: xx  from the project leads group or from CC or from ESC¨ good as general rule?
15:17 louis_to CorNouws: doesn't it depend on the issuse?
15:17 CorNouws louis_to: ?
15:18 louis_to p_ls is a large and varied group; ESC is developer/product focused
15:18 Thalion72 CorNouws: as general rule for all budgets?
15:18 CorNouws Just a suggestion. Reasons not to do that?
15:19 louis_to perhaps we can discuss that on list
15:19 Thalion72 yes - Marketing (marcons could be approvers)
15:19 louis_to for now, if we are all agreed....
15:19 louis_to so CC does infrastructure; ESC develper/development
15:20 Thalion72 yes
15:20 louis_to last point here; is the CC at all involved with development? ST had stated (but may have been for infra) that CC appoints the budget authorisers?
15:21 louis_to my point: given that development is crucial to OOo's identity, I am concerned about CC's relevance
15:21 stx12 i was talking about infrastructure only
15:22 mhu hi all, I'm back now (even read the discussion log)
15:22 Thalion72 development will stay at ESC
15:22 louis_to stx12; ah.
15:22 louis_to Thalion72: ESC appoints and discusses budget ? is CC involved at all, then? (beyond setting original sums)
15:23 stx12 one could involve the CC / project leads as authorisers
15:23 louis_to mhu: going over budget discussions; stx12 persuasively argued that CC should control appoint infrastructure budget. ESC development
15:23 louis_to stx12: that would be my suggestion
15:23 CorNouws louis_to: ? dunno understand. Budget holder Devel. from ESC, authorisers from other entities. That's what I think is OK.
15:24 louis_to CorNouws: right
15:24 stx12 CorNouws: yes
15:24 mhu louis_to: thanks for the summary, I think I could follow reading the log
15:24 Thalion72 louis_to: stx12 never suggested to change John's proposal for the development budget 
15:24 louis_to Budget Holder: To be appointed by ESC Authorisers: two Project Leads/CC members proposed by Budget Holder and accepted by CC Discussions on: project_leads Budget: Developer 	€20,000.00
15:25 louis_to Thalion72: yes, stx12 corrected my misunderstanding
15:25 louis_to do we agree with the rephrased statement, then?
15:26 CorNouws +1
15:26 jpmcc louis_to: +1 (p.s. jpmcc wishes he had Euro sign instead of £ sign on keyboard)
15:26 Thalion72 +1 
15:26 paveljanik +1
15:26 stx12 +1
15:26 louis_to +1
15:26 _nesshof_ +1
15:27 louis_to mhu?
15:28 louis_to * one more point-- adding other categories, such as education: is that development? marketing? depends? 
15:28 stx12 IMO it depends
15:28 Thalion72 +1 for depends
15:28 mhu +1
15:28 louis_to (mhu: we are set to finish in 31 minutes)
15:29 mhu louis_to: yes, I noted your initial comment :-)
15:29 Thalion72 we should start with the current categories and ann more in the next budgets
15:29 CorNouws budget categories?
15:29 Thalion72 (add, not ann)
15:29 louis_to CorNouws: eg, marketing, development
15:29 CorNouws must be choosen bij CC, IMO
15:29 louis_to okay, agreed. Will discuss on council
15:30 CorNouws About the suggestion¨authorisers come from the project leads group or from CC or from ESC¨ good as general rule...
15:30 CorNouws When choosing someone as authoriser, I guess that his/her feeling with the subject is taken into account. So what would be the objection (trying to prevent extra mail ;-) )
15:30 louis_to :-)
15:31 louis_to any more comments on the budget proposal sent by jpmcc?
15:31 Thalion72 mhu had a comment (should we remove the extra OOoCon budget?)
15:32 louis_to if not, modulo the changes made do we all agree with it, then?
15:32 stx12 i still struggle with the all duties of the treasurer - but if mhu does not complain :-)
15:32 mhu well, I don't see how I could get around all this...
15:32 _nesshof_ stx12: maybe he don't want to be reelected this year again ;)
15:33 mhu finally, I would need to send the money anyway.
15:33 louis_to absent -1, the budget proposal is passed....
15:33 CorNouws Thalion72: that was about the fact that the 18.000 spendings are covered by the same incomes
15:33 stx12 yes, but now you need to hold the logs for all the budgets. 
15:33 louis_to friends, we have 26 minutes or so....
15:33 louis_to and if possible, let's discuss a few other items
15:34 Thalion72 louis_to: +1 for the proposal 
15:34 paveljanik sure, +1
15:34 louis_to such as: elections, WWDC 2007 funding, template contest. 
15:35 stx12 what about the option that the budget holder holds the log? 
15:35 CorNouws details by budget holder, totals by treasurer
15:36 mhu what are the issues with WWDC 07 funding and template contest? should I be aware of something?
15:36 stx12 i'm just afraid that we will not find a treasurer once we burned mhu
15:36 louis_to propsal: that we continue to work on the details of this but that we start with budgeting --now
15:36 Thalion72 mhu: yes - people complain about missing payments
15:36 louis_to mhu: the template contest winners have not been fully paid, I believe; wwdc2007 has some issues with reimbursement
15:36 louis_to we can and should discuss this on list
15:36 louis_to please read up...
15:36 mhu stx12: you don't burn me so quickly :-)
15:37 louis_to http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/The_OpenOffice.org_Community_Council_Agenda
15:37 louis_to we would like to resolve this as quickly as possible
15:37 CorNouws what I suggested on mail last Thursday -> pay-day
15:38 mhu what people do complain about what? I don't know of any contest winner, nor when the contest has been, nor ...
15:38 paveljanik 8)
15:38 louis_to so: wwdc and template issues tabled for on-list discussion: yes?
15:38 stx12 i paid those who had a paypal account. those where a bank transfer was needed could be lost by me.
15:39 stx12 i will clarify this.
15:39 Thalion72 stx12: so what would you suggest? Collect all missing requests and put it on a list for you to review and initiate the payments?
15:39 CorNouws stx12: Florian will have details, I guess
15:40 mhu yes, please someone tell me what to pay, whatfore, ..., and I might do. But not telling me doesn't help anyone.
15:40 CorNouws stx12:  ?
15:40 stx12 i should have the information about the template contest winners; but hints are welcome.
15:41 _nesshof_ who was the owner for performing the contest ?
15:41 CorNouws stx12: I?l ask Florian to do so
15:41 louis_to Documentation project, in particular Gerry Singleton
15:41 Thalion72 CorNouws: thanks!
15:41 louis_to however, the trace of winners remains on the doc list
15:41 stx12 the former documentation project lead.
15:41 _nesshof_ stx12: oj, that explains the problem
15:42 CorNouws _nesshof_:  hmm, partly, maybe
15:42 mhu I'm sure, we can resolve this, even if late for some of the winners.
15:42 Thalion72 I'd suggest AI for CorNouws: ask Florian (and other involved people) for missing payments, send list to stx12 and mhu
15:42 CorNouws yep, next issue please
15:43 louis_to +1
15:43 mhu WWDC 2007 ?
15:43 mhu I think this has been resolved meanwhile. Sophie?
15:43 louis_to http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/The_OpenOffice.org_Community_Council_Agenda/WWDC2007_Funding
15:43 CorNouws For me no question on that, so without futher info I would say: pay
15:43 louis_to sophie cannot make it..
15:44 CorNouws So we?l contact Sophie. Resolved > OK, If not, we?l do it.
15:44 jpmcc +1 for the CC to pay its debts :)
15:44 CorNouws (sorry, problems with  ´  in Gaim)
15:45 Thalion72 +1
15:45 CorNouws no comment (= yes)
15:45 mhu I payed, and Christian Hardy replied : "The 2000 Euros arrived to the CUSOON count yesterday.
15:45 mhu Thank you very much.
15:45 mhu Christian " on Feb 26th.
15:46 louis_to so, the wwdc 2007 is resolved?
15:46 mhu Stefan and Sophie have that as a copy.
15:46 stx12 yes, this is resolved.
15:46 louis_to okay; so Cor will contact Florian and correspond with MHU on resolving hte template issue
15:47 louis_to other points on these items?
15:47 CorNouws no
15:47 CorNouws What about budget for the OOoCon
15:47 CorNouws Could we think about extra's to help more developers from far to join?
15:48 Thalion72 the payment for QATrack .. but florian knows about it
15:48 louis_to Cor: shall we make that an agenda item for next time?
15:48 CorNouws and coordinate with beijijng about rules
15:48 Thalion72 +1
15:48 louis_to that can be said of *new* issues/items...
15:48 CorNouws louis_to: Yes and a proposal on mail first
15:48 jpmcc CorNouws: there are a number of OOoCon items I'd like to take to the CC ...
15:48 louis_to jpmcc: indeed
15:48 louis_to John: let's do it this week, as soon as we can
15:49 CorNouws hmm, curious
15:49 louis_to Final for today: elections....
15:49 jpmcc I've been talking to the Beijing team - I'll have a proposal by the end of the week
15:49 CorNouws elections fro what?
15:50 louis_to I'd like to propose we hold elections for CC members who are project leads
15:50 louis_to I'll send out the proposed schedule this week
15:50 louis_to I'd like to see if we can start the process then or early next week. It will take a couple of weeks
15:50 stx12 let's move specs to accepted project first too.
15:50 louis_to stx12: hm
15:50 louis_to stx12: I had discussions with the specs lead when I was in Hamburg
15:51 stx12 and?
15:51 louis_to they declined to move; said it was a mistake
15:51 * stx12 is surprised
15:51 louis_to the conversation was good--we need, very much, to promote specs--
15:51 Thalion72 has there been an official request?
15:51 louis_to but they were not sure it merited or would benefit form being acepted
15:51 CorNouws apart from that (or not) no need to wait for that?
15:52 louis_to Thalion72: they had sent me an official request
15:52 Thalion72 ah - ok
15:52 louis_to I asked, why?
15:52 CorNouws should that infulence the shedule for cc elections
15:52 stx12 and now they are daunted :-)
15:52 louis_to CorNouws: it wouldn't but stx12 wanted to finish pending business
15:53 louis_to stx12: not at all, at least not by me :-)
15:53 Thalion72 CorNouws: no (and I don't see how this is related)
15:53 Thalion72 we will always have pending business :)
15:53 CorNouws so let? talk about elections
15:53 jpmcc btw I thought the way the ux project was promoted showed the community working well and could servfe as a model for the future
15:53 louis_to jpmcc: how so? It merely followed the protocols....
15:54 louis_to ie, it wasn't the first and won't be the last...
15:54 mhu well thats a good start, isnt it?
15:54 jpmcc apologies for the diversion - you were talking about elections...
15:55 louis_to yes. AI me, to send the proposal for project lead elections. any disagreements?
15:55 louis_to (they are a year overdue or so)
15:55 Thalion72 no
15:55 CorNouws agree
15:55 paveljanik yes, ok
15:56 mhu okay
15:56 Thalion72 (rather two if not two)
15:56 jpmcc +1
15:56 stx12 go ahead
15:56 louis_to okay
15:56 louis_to unless there is more business , I'd like to adjourn today. I'd like to focus for next meeting on trademark issues/policy
15:57 louis_to and OOoCon
15:57 Thalion72 +1
15:57 CorNouws I'll add some on the maling list
15:57 jpmcc Are we finished 2 minutes early ?????????? O:-)
15:57 CorNouws Yes, leaving now, Good bye all.
15:57 *** CorNouws has left the channel ()
15:57 mhu yes, and can we agree on a meeting date and time at leat 24h before.
15:57 paveljanik if we have 2 minutes, I'd like to ...
15:57 paveljanik late ;-)
15:57 _nesshof_ when will next meeting be ?
15:57 stx12 no, we have to find a date and time - this will take the next 2 hours
15:58 Thalion72 jpmcc: those two minutes are planned to get a beer ;)
15:58 jpmcc ;-)
15:58 louis_to I propose in three weeks---Tuesday or Thursday
15:58 paveljanik I'd like to change completely our time management method.
15:58 stx12 paveljanik: yes?
15:58 paveljanik meeting times should be not only proposed and voted on, but later announced.
15:58 paveljanik there was no announcement of this meeting
15:58 Thalion72 1st of April? 
15:58 paveljanik there was no timezone attached to 19:00
15:59 paveljanik thus we all were just guessing that it is 19:00 UTC
15:59 stx12 paveljanik: i think we - incl louis_to - agree on that
15:59 louis_to paveljanik: are you going to continue to complain?
15:59 Thalion72 UTC is written at the Agenda page
15:59 louis_to :-)
15:59 paveljanik louis_to: no
15:59 paveljanik louis_to: I want to see the oslution
15:59 paveljanik I do not want to complain
16:00 paveljanik I'm used to some method to arrange meetings and the method we use right now is NONSENSE.
16:00 louis_to then let's see if we can agree on 1 April for now and refine it later, but not later than 1 week. 
16:00 jpmcc 19:00 UTC Thurs March 27th? I'd really like the OOoCon stuff before Easter - maybe we can do it on list
16:00 louis_to jpmcc: agreed; we will have to do a lot on the list, anyway
16:00 mhu actually, I do agree with Pavel. I have more meetings than this, and cant always shift others in favor of this one. So some better planning is required.
16:00 louis_to my concern is that easter is a big holiday
16:01 paveljanik jpmcc: that time is OK for me.
16:01 Thalion72 jpmcc: the time is ok .. but it is actually after Easter
16:01 mhu thu mar 27 is fine for me as well
16:01 louis_to mhu, pavel: I have created google calendar to which all have total control; and you are free to suggest times
16:01 stx12 i will be on vacation the thursday before easter weekend
16:01 jpmcc Why don't we diarise to meet every two weeks on Thursdays? it's always easier to cancel a meeting than arrange one?
16:01 louis_to for now, agreeing on a date is required. 
16:01 louis_to jpmcc: that was once the goal
16:02 mhu stx12: 27 is after easter
16:02 stx12 oops; looking at a calender with holidays may help...
16:02 louis_to okay, next meeting is 27 March, 19:00 UTC, unless otherwise noted. Changes should be made at least four days in advance and the list notified.
16:02 paveljanik ok, proposal - voting - announcement.
16:03 paveljanik can we at least agree on this principle?
16:03 louis_to the google calendar should be updated to reflect this
16:03 jpmcc and every two weeks after that?
16:03 paveljanik e.g. this meeting was proposed.
16:03 paveljanik some people voted on it
16:03 paveljanik none announced the agreed time.
16:03 stx12 and there is no chance to meet earlier in the day? 
16:03 mhu louis_to: is the a howto for that damn google calendar?
16:03 * stx12 is sorry to ask this
16:03 louis_to mhu; it's a puzzle
16:03 louis_to stx12; issue was firewall
16:04 stx12 jpmcc's firewall? 
16:04 louis_to stx12: we can meet before work, if you don't mind meeting at, say, 6 AM
16:04 louis_to stx12: yes; andre, too
16:04 jpmcc louis_to: I hate to admit this, but I now carry me EeePC with me so the firewall is not an issue for me now...
16:04 louis_to :-)
16:05 louis_to so, let's arrange a better time, which we can discuss on list: it's 5 minutes beyond end time
16:05 stx12 we only need Thalion72's opinion
16:05 Thalion72 well .. I can easily agree on 6 am (as long as we start electoins for project lead members soon)
16:05 louis_to but I'd guess that 15:00, if Thalion72 can do it...
16:05 mhu okay, bye for now. Have a good evening / day everyone.
16:05 louis_to mhu: bye...
16:06 Thalion72 no way before 17:00 UTC for me (or early in the morning)
16:06 *** mhu has quit IRC ("Ex-Chat")
16:06 Thalion72 bye mhu
16:06 louis_to meeting adjourned; we will discuss time for next and subsequent meetins onlist
16:06 louis_to okay, we'll work out a compromise; 17:30 is probably okay
16:06 Thalion72 +1
16:06 stx12 17:30 UTC sounds much more friendly to me compared to 19:00 
16:07 jpmcc louis_to: internet reception is not very reliable on the bus ;-)
16:07 paveljanik is 17:30 acceptable for you louis_to ?
16:07 louis_to of course
16:08 louis_to even a meeting at 0600 UTC is
16:08 louis_to but thanks for asking
16:08 paveljanik louis_to: what is your timezone?
16:08 paveljanik (at home)
16:08 louis_to so, 17:30 27 March and thence every fortnight
16:08 louis_to -0500
16:08 louis_to but I got to sleep very late
16:08 Thalion72 so next meeting march 27, 17:30 UTC (and every 2 weeks from that on)
16:08 paveljanik +1
16:08 louis_to yes.
16:08 jpmcc I'd also like to discuss audioconference as an alternative (but not now)
16:09 stx12 thanks, all; let's see whether sophie and others can make
16:09 louis_to unless otherwise noted, in which case, warning 4 days in advance to the list and there must be some sort of receipt of reading
16:09 Thalion72 ok
16:09 louis_to thanks all...
16:09 *** jpmcc has quit IRC ("night night")
16:09 paveljanik bye
16:10 stx12 bye all
16:10 Thalion72 bye
16:10 louis_to bye all