Community Council Log 20090326
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IRC Log of Community Council Meeting 2009-03-26
Attendees
- Sophie Gautier (sophi)
- Martin Hollmichel (_Nesshof_)
- Matthias Huetsch (mhu)
- John McCreesh (jpmcc)
- Cor Nouws (CorNouws)
- André Schnabel (Thalion72)
- Stefan Taxhet (stx12)
- Pavel Janik (paveljanik)
- Louis Suárez-Potts (louis_to)
irc.freenode.net #OOocouncil 15:35:50 3/26/09 [meeting commences] 15:37:28 louis_to let's start 15:37:33 Thalion72 this is going to be the first "full" meeting for months :) 15:38:04 _Nesshof_ /leave 15:38:09 _Nesshof_ ;-) 15:38:28 mhu yes, thanks to all for agreeing on a time that fits my evenings schedule 15:38:48 louis_to from last meeting: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Community_Council/Minutes#2009-03-12__.28IRC.29 15:38:59 louis_to The Action Items that remain: 15:39:18 louis_to ? Elections: to commence this week with candidate nominations (Louis and Sophie). 15:39:18 louis_to ? Announcements related to new charter and elections: 15:39:18 louis_to 1. For new charter (André and John, completed) 2. for nominations and election news, 3 days after the first announcement 15:39:18 louis_to ? Trademark update (In lawyer's hands; update: Sophie, John, Louis): "in progress" 15:39:18 louis_to ? Budget procedures clarification (John and probably others): in progress 15:39:18 louis_to ? LSP: Louis to re-send to CC list original emails related to SPI 15:41:06 louis_to primary issues then: elections; the announcement of charter went out already, it's now up to Louis and Sophie to do the election announcement 15:41:11 CorNouws Budget procedures clarification ... = done 15:41:18 louis_to thanks 15:41:25 jpmcc "Budget procedures clarification" - I don't believe I have anything to do? 15:41:30 louis_to as always, please update the wiki accordingly 15:42:50 sophi louis_to: I can work on the elections draft announcement during the week end 15:43:10 sophi louis_to: next week is Solution Linux 09 and will be a hard week 15:43:43 Thalion72 sophi: I think, I can help. I'll be away this weekend (back at Sunday afternoon) 15:43:58 Thalion72 so I can at least review and continue next week 15:44:16 sophi Thalion72: so I'll send you the draft over the week end, thanks :) 15:44:38 louis_to I can do the draft with Andre; I'd like to, anyway, as he has strong opinoins about it 15:45:07 sophi louis_to: ok, no problem 15:45:12 louis_to I'm free this week, too, as I won't--alas--be able to attend Solutions Linux, despite all the eager email I receive on it from a certain company :-) 15:45:22 Thalion72 louis_to: as said .. I cannot start before Sunday 15:45:30 louis_to understood. But I can 15:45:34 jpmcc <thinks out loud>I've forgotten how the process is supposed to work - must read it over the weekend</thinks out loud> 15:45:38 louis_to and it was my responsibility, tooi 15:45:53 sophi feel sorry about the spam you may had and its content... 15:45:56 louis_to the process, john, is also part of the issue that needs to be clarified 15:46:24 louis_to that's one reason why it's taking time--the process of nomination, etc., that we used to use was found wanting (ie, not perfect) 15:47:05 louis_to but I don't think the issues are that serious; more serious is informing the community and targeting those who are most active to consider standing for office 15:47:08 stx12 thinks that we need to draft some more announcements in advance to stick with a schedule for candidate nomination; candidate statements; election opening; election reminder; ... 15:47:28 louis_to invites stx12 to contribute to the process 15:47:55 louis_to but the idea is obviously (I hope) not to go randomly, as stx12 evidently thinks 15:47:55 Thalion72 stx12: this is the idea for the first announcement .. to have the schedule in place ;) 15:48:02 louis_to quite 15:48:06 stx12 i guess i will take the invitation on the tooling - i just ran a survey ;-) 15:48:27 Thalion72 stx12: this help is welcome 15:48:49 CorNouws stx12: Yes, was good to read Rafaëlla's mail explaining the needs 15:48:59 stx12 i don't think we will go random; but we are already behind the scedule mentioned in the last meeting; i would like to avoid this as soon as we are in the middle of the process 15:49:02 louis_to So: AI louis with help from friends André (sunday) and also Stefan and to a degree Sophie to initiate the election process 15:49:38 CorNouws looks as if I was on a wrong channel 15:49:40 louis_to the process to start with announcement about election, candidate nominations, etc., next week 15:49:55 CorNouws something else about elections ... 15:49:58 Thalion72 louis_to: just as a reminder http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Community_Council/Items/Election_Process_Proposal 15:50:11 CorNouws maybe the cc should have an opinion on my position (serving time) 15:50:17 louis_to yes, I am aware of that; that's why I would appreciate your contribution, Thalion72 15:51:07 louis_to CorNouws; personally, I find your contributions absolutely invaluable 15:51:08 Thalion72 CorNouws: do we need to have an opinion? do you suggest to change the charter again? 15:51:36 CorNouws louis_to: thanks; Thalion72 ;-) 15:51:54 CorNouws No, it's only that we are aware of the situation 15:52:15 Thalion72 CorNouws: we need to re-eleact all seats anyway :( 15:53:00 Thalion72 well .. action item is defined ... something more to elections? or next item? 15:53:11 CorNouws Thalion72: OTOH, finding fine candidates for the (close to) impossible task to replace Sophie and André, will keep us bussy for some time.. 15:53:29 CorNouws (next item pls) 15:53:31 louis_to next one: update on trademark? 15:53:58 louis_to John? sophi? 15:54:21 sophi louis_to: I've a report to do from the three lawyers 15:54:53 louis_to ugh 15:54:55 sophi louis_to: as some remarks have been added, we need more comments on them 15:55:04 louis_to yes. 15:55:11 mhu wonders whether Sun Legal might have had a chance to look at any trademark draft 15:55:15 louis_to I will have time this end of week to revisit it 15:55:23 louis_to That was part of the idea... 15:55:35 jpmcc mhu: should we send it to IBM legal instead? 15:55:45 louis_to sun legal has become quite responsive; I must further add to issue related to tradarmark /google protection 15:55:52 sophi jpmcc: :) 15:55:56 louis_to jpmcc: groans. 15:56:03 mhu jpmcc: do you know more than me ? :-) 15:56:13 sophi louis_to: the lawyers that their is no hole but some items has to be precised 15:56:25 louis_to understood 15:56:25 sophi louis_to: I need to digg into and translate 15:56:33 CorNouws I thought John just spoke about free (open source) advice 15:56:34 louis_to do you have time to discuss it tomorrow? 15:56:42 louis_to perhasp IM? 15:57:09 sophi louis_to: they find the draft has a very good quality 15:57:25 _Nesshof_ sophi: which version ? 15:57:30 jpmcc sophi: congratulations 15:57:34 louis_to yes, indeed 15:57:39 sophi _Nesshof_: the one before your proposal 15:57:43 _Nesshof_ aha 15:57:47 louis_to :-) 15:58:23 sophi _Nesshof_: we didn't rewrite it with you proposal yet, we need comments from the other participant (if any ;) 15:58:33 _Nesshof_ is my proposal completly wrong ? 15:58:59 sophi _Nesshof_: no, see my comments, I find it very difficult to achieve from the community point of view 15:59:11 louis_to okay, AI: a statement of progress given by sophi: that she must go over 3 lawyers's comments; AI for Louis and sophi to discuss this via IM or IRC this week. 15:59:15 sophi _Nesshof_: but not wrong at all 15:59:18 louis_to sophi: is that fair and feasible? 15:59:24 _Nesshof_ I'm still wondering which problem we want to solve 15:59:46 CorNouws _Nesshof_: ? 15:59:47 louis_to we can have a group Irc discussion on this, of those who wish to join from here 15:59:50 sophi louis_to: next week, on the evening if it's possible for you, the week is already full 16:00:16 CorNouws I like to join such a meeting 16:00:21 sophi louis_to: I mean this week is already full 16:03:21 jpmcc zzz 16:03:27 louis_to yes, it is, which is why i was wondering if you could do it... 16:03:45 _Nesshof_ CorNouws: what is the problem we want to resolve with a tm policy ? 16:03:46 louis_to let's schedule for nexgt week; I'll go over the material with sleepy john 16:04:03 sophi louis_to: ok, thanks 16:04:50 Thalion72 _Nesshof_: we want to have a tm policy, so that we do not need to discuss about a tm policy anymore ;) 16:05:13 _Nesshof_ Thalion72: hmm, not that convincing 16:05:17 CorNouws _Nesshof_: I have the feeling that I might understand what you mean; will investigate next days 16:05:32 jpmcc louis_to: any update on the Google adwords / trademark formal complaint? 16:05:42 sophi _Nesshof_: this not a problem, just a definition : what is the OOo product, name and logo :) 16:05:45 louis_to jpmcc: yes, that's what I meant when I said I had to update the issue 16:06:14 _Nesshof_ sophi: why we do have to do that definition ? 16:06:49 jpmcc <note>Google adwords issue: http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=97164</note> 16:06:52 CorNouws ... trying to stimulate people doing a thing, or trying to prevent people doing a thing 16:07:21 sophi _Nesshof_: Google is your friend ;) I think we need to define this for the community, l10n, our users, etc.... 16:07:38 Thalion72 jpmcc: TM will help in no way with this issue .. but ok, 16:07:55 _Nesshof_ sophi: I agree partly, see my extensions example ... 16:07:57 louis_to _Nesshof_: it can be an operational definition, ie, a binary or source derived from official serviers off the site 16:08:59 _Nesshof_ but the trademark policy should address a problem and should not just stand for itself 16:09:04 Thalion72 is it usefull to go into the details here? 16:09:08 sophi imho this can be discuss on the trademark list :) 16:09:14 Thalion72 _Nesshof_: correct 16:09:17 louis_to agreed 16:09:19 louis_to moving on: 16:09:46 louis_to spi messages 16:09:48 louis_to am doing it now 16:10:02 louis_to first one derives from 2006 council meeting: 16:10:04 louis_to http://council.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadMsg?listName=discuss&msgNo=969 16:10:21 louis_to discussion then captured in thread: http://council.openoffice.org/servlets/BrowseList?list=discuss&by=thread&from=1599233 16:11:02 louis_to I will send the detailed items, but key one is by me 04 December 2006 16:11:29 mhu still wonders who at SPI would be his contact (as a treasurer) to be kept up to date, and how to get at the collected money. 16:12:35 louis_to mhu: I've indicated this to you; we have to add you to the list and make you an or the advisor, or have a group alias, eg, adivsor-spi@council, instead of my email address, as is the case now 16:12:55 sophi mhu: the SPI treasurer is our contact here 16:13:13 louis_to AI: Louis to see about changing SPI alias to advisor-spi@council. 16:13:23 stx12 may i ask who the spi treasurer and our contact is atm? 16:13:30 mhu thanks, that answers part 1 of my question (and maybe you already answered it before) 16:13:40 louis_to mhu: as I wrote to you, we do not have direct access to the treasure reports, just to what the treasure tells us 16:14:05 mhu ...remains part 2: how are we supposed to spend the collected money ? 16:14:16 louis_to Michael Schultheiss 16:14:21 stx12 thx 16:14:27 sophi mhu: spend ? or collect ? 16:14:28 louis_to I can introduce you, too 16:14:56 CorNouws mhu: I guess we have freedom to choose we think is best.. 16:14:59 mhu sophi: I mean spend, SPI is collecting, I want to spend :-) 16:15:00 louis_to mhu: how would spending the collected money differ in any way from money collected any other way? 16:15:09 louis_to why is there a difference at all? 16:15:19 louis_to is confused by this difference 16:15:19 CorNouws mhu: need ideas? 16:15:37 louis_to mhu: I'm also gettng a little upset here 16:15:39 CorNouws is working on an idea to spend much more 16:15:57 mhu thinks noone understands: the question is "how" technically, not "for what" 16:16:02 louis_to we have had many ideas for spending money on marketing related things--from travel to collaeral to events 16:16:15 CorNouws mhu: that is what I wrote: need ideas? 16:16:21 louis_to the for what has been abundantly answered. I am therefore stunned you should ask what you have. 16:16:28 louis_to wold you care to explain your point? 16:16:49 mhu no ideas, I want to have the money on my account ... 16:16:50 CorNouws louis_to: probably looking to the surplus of 2008 ? 16:17:27 CorNouws mhu: Ah, was reading you wrong - apllgs 16:17:29 mhu in even simpler words: spi has the money I want it; how do I get it 16:17:30 sophi louis_to: yes, we don't know how to get the money from SPI account 16:17:36 stx12 i understand that mhu's point is how money leaves the SPI account 16:18:32 CorNouws Are we able to solve that after this meeting?? 16:18:41 stx12 on request to the SPI treasurer of the OOo treasurer? 16:18:54 sophi CorNouws: yes, I'll investigate :) 16:19:02 stx12 no, "we" just understood the problem ;-) 16:19:06 mhu oh, I dont expect resolution now; just that I would like to have this minor point calrified 16:19:37 mhu s/calrified/clarified/ 16:19:38 louis_to ah. 16:19:43 louis_to thx for clarification 16:19:45 stx12 should stop with easy to be misunderstood ironie ;-) 16:19:46 louis_to I'll ask 16:20:10 stx12 do we have a recommendation we cah ask to be implemented? 16:21:03 mhu I think there must be an existing way for money to flow from spi; step one would be to get to know that way. 16:21:24 louis_to mhu: I just asked 16:21:33 mhu louis_to: thanks 16:21:39 louis_to cc'd sophi, mhu, stx12 16:21:53 louis_to also asked about changing email alias for delivery of tresaurer reports 16:22:04 sophi louis_to: thanks 16:22:40 louis_to do we have any new agenda items? 16:23:00 CorNouws louis_to: ?? 16:23:07 CorNouws http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Community_Council/Agenda 16:23:21 louis_to odd, I missed that 16:23:52 louis_to ah. url is unfamiliar, I was using the old url 16:24:31 louis_to so, we are at #6 16:24:48 CorNouws Indeed 16:25:07 louis_to the two parts are: 16:25:08 CorNouws 2.6 to be more precise 16:25:21 louis_to 1. info on wiki 16:25:21 louis_to 2. further ideas / discussion 16:25:25 louis_to (yes; thanks) 16:25:37 CorNouws 2.6.1 is there is rought version 16:25:41 louis_to status on 2.6.1? 16:25:52 CorNouws 2.6.2 is where the cc comes in actively ;-) 16:26:09 louis_to proposal on this? we briefly raised it at OOoCon, you recall 16:26:10 Thalion72 ok, so I want to see 2.6.1 first :) 16:26:17 louis_to indeed 16:26:40 CorNouws linked from http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Community_Council 16:26:52 CorNouws you find http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Community_Council/Project_Improvements 16:26:57 louis_to CorNouws: would you drive this for the next meeting? 16:27:16 CorNouws See no need for that 16:27:22 louis_to I mean: would you raise the profile of this issue that is important so as to get us to contribute to it? 16:27:36 sophi CorNouws: may be first revive it on the list, could you post the links? 16:27:59 CorNouws sophi: already did that .. 16:28:01 louis_to right now, it's a skeleton wanting a body 16:28:12 louis_to part of the problem is that it is vague 16:28:21 CorNouws and I would like to know wht we all think of it 16:28:34 louis_to during OOoCon, I interpreted this as partly answered by the regional group idea 16:28:53 louis_to and I thought and continue to think that it is the most effective way of growing the community 16:29:03 louis_to as it has show real results 16:29:05 CorNouws louis_to: I do not see a relation to a thing we discussed in Beijing, sorry 16:29:12 louis_to how do you not? 16:29:35 louis_to For I am puzzled that you would think there is no relationship, sorry 16:29:47 CorNouws cause this is on cc level, not regional 16:30:18 louis_to hm. regional means enabling groups to do things that bring in contributors 16:30:30 CorNouws for example: mybe we find out that there are thing we need to do to make regional groups grow 16:30:33 louis_to where "groups" are geographicall based 16:30:37 CorNouws or to help other processes... 16:30:38 louis_to ah, I see 16:30:52 louis_to well, we discussed that at Bejing OOoCon, too 16:31:14 CorNouws did we, was I attending there ;-) 16:31:16 louis_to and the idea that was raised then by me was the establishment not of a bureaucracy but nevertheless of a kind of office 16:31:38 CorNouws this is not about bueaucracy 16:31:52 louis_to at the CC meeting, yes; at the regional groups meeting, no; at the marketing meeting, no; at the other meetings where this was discussed, I do not recall 16:32:09 louis_to I am not suggesting, CorNouws, it's about bureaucracy. quite the opposite 16:32:13 CorNouws it is about visibility, wareness, openness 16:32:23 CorNouws wareness = awareness 16:32:32 louis_to but these things do not count for very much absent specifics, I am sorry to say 16:32:33 sophi louis_to: first CJK meeting was on last Saturday, it was interesting and need to be advertized :) 16:32:35 CorNouws ah, sorry 16:32:49 louis_to it was also at 05:00 my time 16:33:02 CorNouws may I ask all here, to react on a mail that I can decide to send after this meeting, on this subject?? 16:33:16 louis_to you just did :-) 16:33:28 sophi louis_to: I know, I didn't say that because you were not there, but because it's a step that need to be furthered 16:33:31 mhu CorNouws: yes, please go ahead 16:34:39 sophi louis_to: with other RegiGroups that are sleepy :) 16:34:47 CorNouws support from the treasurer .. most important, so is fine for me ;-) 16:35:21 louis_to sophi, well, I feel pretty strongly about regional groups and note they are not sleepy, just cannot communicate. I spent a couple of hours with the BR people last night... and some time with ES in Argentina today... 16:35:47 louis_to So. Cor, please send to list as you suggest. 16:35:54 louis_to Shall we move on to #3? 16:36:06 CorNouws ok 'll do so 16:36:09 louis_to thnx 16:36:10 CorNouws ys pls 16:36:27 louis_to (2009) Budget 16:36:27 louis_to 1. Is it possible to work with yearly spending / income sheets etc. (see irc log) 16:36:42 louis_to mhu? stx12? 16:37:01 mhu irc log? I only found minutes, but no log 16:37:24 mhu .i.e. what is the question, actually ? 16:37:36 louis_to yes, that question seems enigmatic to me 16:37:50 CorNouws what is enigm..? 16:37:54 louis_to puzzling 16:38:01 CorNouws ah ;-) 16:38:16 CorNouws the community has incomes and spendings 16:38:36 CorNouws so I would like that the cc has an overview 16:38:51 CorNouws and can inform comunity member that are interested in our well being 16:39:26 mhu hmm, an answer like "thanks, all is well" does not count ? :-) 16:39:40 louis_to :-) 16:39:56 mhu seriuosly, I think I understand the request 16:39:59 jpmcc It is normal in the UK for clubs, societies, etc to publish a 'Statement of Sources and Application of Funds' - where the money came from, and where it went... 16:40:19 CorNouws mhu: sounds fine, but could bemore encouraging.. 16:40:25 CorNouws mhu: thanks ;-) 16:40:26 mhu jpmcc: yes, I understand; sorry I was joking 16:40:46 CorNouws mhu: serious ?? 16:40:51 mhu yes 16:40:57 CorNouws :-) 16:41:24 CorNouws (was joking to) 16:41:55 mhu as martin stefan, and I explained in the past, teamooo still is waiting for tax statements for the years from 2003 until today ... 16:42:08 stx12 i think there is still some work necessary on the balances, tax documents and then we come back 16:42:35 CorNouws ok ... is team OOo to pay taxes?? 16:42:37 jpmcc Provisional figures (subject to tax adjustments) are ok by me 16:42:48 mhu ...so I am still carefull with "income statements" when that income may actually go to the secretary of finance. 16:42:49 stx12 and that is more serious than i would like it to be... 16:43:30 stx12 hates tax declarations 16:43:39 mhu yes, understood; but other answers seem not well received 16:43:49 CorNouws stx12: then you have to do it as fast as possible ;-) 16:43:54 louis_to mhu, stx12: would hiring a n accountant help matters? 16:44:14 stx12 that's what martin is working on 16:44:31 stx12 a tax accuntant that means 16:44:48 louis_to yes. 16:44:55 mhu expedite work of local authorities ? 16:45:21 Thalion72 needs to leave soon 16:45:22 louis_to is that always wanted in the case of taxes? :-) 16:45:33 stx12 so we are coming closer to the relief; but i can't resist to state there is still some money to be spend - seriously 16:45:36 mhu needs to leave now also 16:45:37 louis_to okay, so the answer then is.... 16:46:05 louis_to stx12: when I last requested money to spend my proposals were not that welcomed 16:46:32 louis_to I still should send the amount reimbursable for LCA 09, as approved by the budget directors in my area 16:46:37 CorNouws louis_to: there were other reasons for the marketing budget holders to be careful 16:46:46 louis_to but I do think that we need to allocate more funds to marketing-related events!! 16:46:53 stx12 but that's not the problem of the request for balance - we have the budgets for 2009 16:47:04 louis_to CorNouws: perhaps; mainly lack of knowledge of situation 16:47:15 louis_to stx12: then what is the problem? 16:47:27 CorNouws and at that time no idea of the budget 16:47:28 louis_to you mean the prior tax liable amounts 16:47:36 CorNouws and no plans for possible spendings 16:47:38 louis_to CorNouws; yes, I know, though one could do a good guess 16:47:43 CorNouws which still is the case ... 16:47:59 louis_to CorNouws; this i not news, exactly, you know; and one can still do a fairly good estimate 16:48:09 louis_to the basic point remains that we have a lot of money 16:48:16 stx12 we can argue about an increase of the budgets if the money that is allocated for 2009 is all spent 16:48:17 CorNouws louis_to: I agree... 16:48:18 louis_to we do not know precisely how much 16:48:40 louis_to and we must be careful b/c we may be liable, I take it, for prior tax years? 16:48:40 stx12 we knopw what we work with for 2009 - so let's go ahead 16:48:52 louis_to stx12: that is what is wanted by the question 16:48:59 louis_to so that we can in fact plan and reimburse 16:49:27 louis_to there are several important events upcoming that we need collateral for, booth spaces, and even travel for those presenting there, or otherwise relevant 16:50:08 CorNouws louis_to: all: pls send info estimates to budget@ .. so that we can more or less plan! 16:50:21 louis_to CorNouws, of course 16:50:22 stx12 i think we stated often enugh - in 2008 and 2009 - that we can work with the budgets that have been defined. i can only urge the budget holders (including me) to do so.. 16:50:39 Thalion72 this is btw. what we asked for for a while 16:50:45 louis_to Shall we make this an urgent AI for budget holders? 16:50:52 louis_to +1 16:51:04 CorNouws and - repeating myself - all to give info about possible spendings 16:51:25 jpmcc I still feel vaguely uneasy about being told there is a pot of money to spend without having any idea where it came from, how much is liable to be repeated annually, and how much is from one-off historic items. 16:51:26 CorNouws els budget holders have a tough job ... can I spend 20% now ... how much will be asked later ?? 16:51:45 Thalion72 louis_to: this has been an AI for budget holders on 2009-01-22 already 16:51:51 louis_to AI for budget holders: to send to the budget list information of what they want money for and why for the coming quarter 16:51:55 louis_to yes, I know, but it's not being acted on 16:52:03 louis_to so, I think renewing it then. 16:52:15 mhu wonders, why he is spending money from the 2009 budget already for about 3 months, and still people complain they are not reimbursed ? 16:52:28 louis_to mhu: b/c I have not sent you my statement 16:52:40 louis_to mhu: I was not complaining, btw 16:52:52 mhu so, then why didnt you send it; others are doing it 16:53:04 louis_to refrains from commenting 16:53:26 CorNouws mhu: do you wnat to lend my stick ;-) 16:53:48 louis_to okay, budget holders to review the AI from 22 January and renewed, to submit to the budget list the desiderata and amounts 16:53:49 mhu I simply dont understand the problem, sorry 16:54:16 louis_to mhu: afaik, there is no problem with reimbursements; it's the idea of future expenses 16:54:24 mhu there are budgets assigned, and I am spending them 16:54:49 louis_to the amount allocated from the provisional budget for mktng struck me as too low 16:55:03 mhu jpmcc: right, we spent parts of the marketing budget ? 16:55:07 louis_to but that can be further discussed at a later time. we are now approaching 1.5 hours 16:55:47 jpmcc mhu: I don't think I've rejected any requests for expenditure to date. 16:56:01 mhu right, thanks 16:56:12 CorNouws jpmcc: but not answered all either.. 16:56:14 louis_to notes that that does not count his rejection of mine 16:56:50 mhu louis_to: but yours was accepted also, or did I miss something ? 16:57:01 louis_to mhu: not by marketing 16:57:17 CorNouws thinks John needs a good secretary, doing the mail and so on 16:57:25 jpmcc louis_to: you have your own pot - hands off the MP's ;-) 16:57:29 louis_to but this is not relevant to this discussion 16:57:40 mhu ah, but that makes no difference for the treasurer 16:57:51 louis_to which has to do with understanding the yearly amount available 16:57:55 louis_to to all of us 16:58:07 jpmcc CorNouws: or a less efficient spam filter ;-) 16:58:11 louis_to and to helping therefore the treasurer with making budget 16:59:01 mhu lets first try to spend the assigned budget ... 16:59:30 louis_to so, the logistical solution you prefer is to spend until we run out? then if we run out, to give us more money? 16:59:33 louis_to I find that difficult to accept 17:00:00 mhu you should accept the assigned budget, where is the problem 17:00:01 louis_to as it will impose a self-restricting spending economy, an economy of parsimony that may be totally unwanted 17:00:27 louis_to why should any of us accept the assigned budget if there is in fact a lot more money available? 17:00:40 louis_to I feel that there are secrets or mysteries here that are unwanted 17:00:51 mhu 2008: assigned 70K, spent 2K, thats what I am talking about 17:01:17 Thalion72 mhu: so why is the total budget for 2009 just the same as 2008? 17:01:19 louis_to in 2009, we may have more; we did not spend in 2008, mhu, because we had no apparatus to identify things to spend it on 17:01:25 louis_to now we do 17:01:26 jpmcc louis_to: result! 17:01:37 Thalion72 if we spent almost nothing in 2008, we should have the double amount available 17:01:39 stx12 then let us clarify the uncertainty with the tax authorities. 17:01:48 louis_to yet we are still parsimonious when it comes to spending as we stil do not know how much money in total we have really 17:02:02 mhu how does money that is not spent double itself ? 17:02:14 louis_to mhu: I feel I'm going in circles here 17:02:24 Thalion72 mhu: because of the mystery of "income" 17:02:31 mhu i feel nobody is listening 17:02:33 jpmcc mhu: there are some of my colleagues in RBS who can explain that to you ;-) 17:02:40 Thalion72 the thing nobody seems to be able to talk about 17:02:52 stx12 jpmcc: but omly a few... 17:02:56 CorNouws mhu: Possibly we had the idea that the 2008 budget was based on 2008 incomes 17:03:35 CorNouws mhu: and maybe that was wrong, but we simply do not know ;-) 17:03:54 CorNouws stx12: :-) 17:04:58 CorNouws mhu: and so we expect the same income in 2009 >>> there you have the doubling minus 2 k 17:05:41 mhu the 2008 budget was based on what we had end of 2007 and we were comfortable offering to spend; 2009 would be based on 2008 ... 17:06:12 CorNouws mhu: ah, so our idea was simply not correct, or not precize enough 17:06:14 mhu but nobody has spent somethhing, so why double the budget ? 17:06:28 CorNouws mhu: of course not, but that is another question 17:06:45 mhu why is that another question ? 17:08:00 paveljanik quite a long discussion today. 17:08:03 CorNouws mhu: because if you think each year has income X, than in two years you have 2X to spend (apart from reservations, which we did not talk about) 17:08:34 CorNouws and the idea about a possible budget 17:08:53 CorNouws is not the same as the ideas you make about where to spend your mony on 17:09:03 mhu but we have an idea of a possible budget: same as last year 17:09:18 CorNouws mhu: ... does that make sense?? 17:09:19 Thalion72 mhu: and .. TeamOOo is collecting funds for the community (at least it is promoted this way). But the community does not know, how much fund we get. 17:09:40 mhu yes, understood 17:09:57 CorNouws mhu: give me your phone, I'll call tomorrow, I think it is easier to understand each other then 17:10:01 mhu but I also tried to explain the situation (tax et al) 17:10:23 CorNouws mhu: yes thanks, good info I was not aware of 17:10:26 louis_to to put it bluntly: you cannot tell us details because you do not know your tax liablity? 17:11:02 mhu I know what I have on the account, and i dont know how much tax i will need to pay, yes 17:11:05 louis_to however, we are puzzled that for the last 6 or so years, during which team O. has been collecting funds, the sum total is still oddly about the same? 17:11:12 louis_to and our budget too? 17:11:30 louis_to but mhu: you can estimate this. all of do this all the time, when we pay taxes. 17:11:41 louis_to we estimate our liablity based on published tax rates 17:12:00 louis_to this allows us to think ahead 17:12:06 mhu this has nothing to do with personal tax statements, this is totally new to me 17:12:17 CorNouws rephrase John: we can publish provisional, and state that tax addaptions possible 17:12:21 louis_to I understand that; that is why I suggested hiring an accounttant 17:12:28 louis_to I agree with Cor 17:12:46 CorNouws In the Netherlands, a eV does not have to pay taxes 17:12:51 mhu that will not help, as I said; we are waiting on lawyers and authorities 17:12:52 CorNouws does not have to hire an accountant 17:13:09 CorNouws can jest ask the memebrs todo check & balances 17:13:20 CorNouws jest = just (need more wine ;-) ) 17:13:38 sophi CorNouws: same in France 17:13:38 jpmcc CorNouws: less wine 17:13:50 CorNouws more beer then? 17:13:57 mhu mabe I need wine, too :-) 17:14:33 Thalion72 CorNouws: this is the difference of being a charity or not here in Germany (basically) 17:14:51 louis_to all, I suggest we continue this discussion via phone next week 17:14:52 mhu yes, and teamooo is not a charity 17:15:22 louis_to I have to be going, too, and I imagine others, do, too 17:15:24 jpmcc louis_to: +1 17:15:34 stx12 Thalion72: there are different levels of charities / associations in germany. fully tax exempted, some exemptions, ... 17:15:35 CorNouws mhu: Probably you had spent more time for other important jobs for OOo 17:15:58 CorNouws louis_to: +1 17:16:08 louis_to I would suggest then that we close this meeting now, and have a phone conversation next week; i can send out the conference information 17:16:19 louis_to and will send out irc log tonight to this meeting 17:16:19 mhu yes, lets finish for today; I understood what you were trying to tell me; and I see what can be improved in the future; but I also need to take care of taxes 17:16:31 jpmcc We should all go and drink a bottle to celebrate 50 million downloads! 17:16:36 louis_to thanks. sorry if I got upset, it's been, for me, a very very long day 17:16:38 louis_to yes. 17:16:40 louis_to :-) 17:16:42 CorNouws yes, not on Tuesday and Wednesday between 9:00 and 13:00 UT Cpls 17:16:53 louis_to I'd say drink some fine gemran beer, but that seems redundant :_0 17:16:59 Thalion72 jpmcc: and a second bottle to celebrate a Council meeting with 9 attendees 17:17:00 sophi sad that we didn't have time to discuss Rafaella resquest 17:17:11 louis_to I think we can do so onlist? 17:17:17 mhu now gets himself a beer :-) 17:17:26 louis_to sophi: it's really getting late 17:17:43 CorNouws sophi: louis_to: yes, the request is clead, and Stefan has the money 17:17:44 sophi louis_to: yes I know, I've to go also 17:18:55 CorNouws I propose to have 2.6 and 4 from this meeting on top of the next agenda... 17:19:18 louis_to that's fine. 17:19:19 CorNouws before the AI (that we will have finished any way ..) 17:19:33 sophi CorNouws: may be RC 1 won't be there ;) 17:19:35 stx12 first i agree what the problem rafaella describes should be solved. but between a problem description and an available budget there is a gap... 17:19:40 louis_to I move to adjourn, then, and follow CorNouws's suggestion for next meeting; and to schedule a phone conference for next week 17:20:14 CorNouws I'll take care of part of the next meetings agenda 17:20:14 paveljanik ok, bye 17:20:23 louis_to thx, CorNouws 17:20:34 mhu bye all, see you next week 17:20:36 CorNouws bye all, and sleep well zzzz 17:20:41 sophi bye all 17:20:44 louis_to bye all 17:20:53 louis_to meeting adjourned