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IRC Log of Community Council Meeting 2009-03-26

Attendees

All CC members present

• Sophie Gautier (sophi)
• Martin Hollmichel (_Nesshof_)
• Matthias Huetsch (mhu)
• John McCreesh (jpmcc)
• Cor Nouws (CorNouws)
• André Schnabel (Thalion72)
• Stefan Taxhet (stx12)
• Pavel Janik (paveljanik)
• Louis Suárez-Potts (louis_to)

irc.freenode.net #OOocouncil 15:35:50 3/26/09

[meeting commences]

15:37:28 louis_to let's start

15:37:33 Thalion72 this is going to be the first "full" meeting for months :)

15:38:04 _Nesshof_ /leave

15:38:09 _Nesshof_ ;-)

15:38:28 mhu yes, thanks to all for agreeing on a time that fits my evenings schedule

15:38:48 louis_to from last meeting: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Community_Council/Minutes#2009-03-12__.28IRC.29

15:38:59 louis_to The Action Items that remain:

15:39:18 louis_to ? Elections: to commence this week with candidate nominations (Louis and Sophie).

15:39:18 louis_to ? Announcements related to new charter and elections:

15:39:18 louis_to 1. For new charter (André and John, completed) 2. for nominations and election news, 3 days after the first announcement

15:39:18 louis_to ? Trademark update (In lawyer's hands; update: Sophie, John, Louis): "in progress"

15:39:18 louis_to ? Budget procedures clarification (John and probably others): in progress

15:39:18 louis_to ? LSP: Louis to re-send to CC list original emails related to SPI

15:41:06 louis_to primary issues then: elections; the announcement of charter went out already, it's now up to Louis and Sophie to do the election announcement

15:41:11 CorNouws Budget procedures clarification ... = done

15:41:18 louis_to thanks

15:41:25 jpmcc "Budget procedures clarification" - I don't believe I have anything to do?

15:41:30 louis_to as always, please update the wiki accordingly

15:42:50 sophi louis_to: I can work on the elections draft announcement during the week end

15:43:10 sophi louis_to: next week is Solution Linux 09 and will be a hard week

15:43:43 Thalion72 sophi: I think, I can help. I'll be away this weekend (back at Sunday afternoon)

15:43:58 Thalion72 so I can at least review and continue next week

15:44:16 sophi Thalion72: so I'll send you the draft over the week end, thanks :)

15:44:38 louis_to I can do the draft with Andre; I'd like to, anyway, as he has strong opinoins about it

15:45:07 sophi louis_to: ok, no problem

15:45:12 louis_to I'm free this week, too, as I won't--alas--be able to attend Solutions Linux, despite all the eager email I receive on it from a certain company :-)

15:45:22 Thalion72 louis_to: as said .. I cannot start before Sunday

15:45:30 louis_to understood. But I can

15:45:34 jpmcc <thinks out loud>I've forgotten how the process is supposed to work - must read it over the weekend</thinks out loud>

15:45:38 louis_to and it was my responsibility, tooi

15:45:53 sophi feel sorry about the spam you may had and its content...

15:45:56 louis_to the process, john, is also part of the issue that needs to be clarified

15:46:24 louis_to that's one reason why it's taking time--the process of nomination, etc., that we used to use was found wanting (ie, not perfect)

15:47:05 louis_to but I don't think the issues are that serious; more serious is informing the community and targeting those who are most active to consider standing for office

15:47:08 stx12 thinks that we need to draft some more announcements in advance to stick with a schedule for candidate nomination; candidate statements; election opening; election reminder; ...

15:47:28 louis_to invites stx12 to contribute to the process

15:47:55 louis_to but the idea is obviously (I hope) not to go randomly, as stx12 evidently thinks

15:47:55 Thalion72 stx12: this is the idea for the first announcement .. to have the schedule in place ;)

15:48:02 louis_to quite

15:48:06 stx12 i guess i will take the invitation on the tooling - i just ran a survey ;-)

15:48:27 Thalion72 stx12: this help is welcome

15:48:49 CorNouws stx12: Yes, was good to read Rafaëlla's mail explaining the needs

15:48:59 stx12 i don't think we will go random; but we are already behind the scedule mentioned in the last meeting; i would like to avoid this as soon as we are in the middle of the process

15:49:02 louis_to So: AI louis with help from friends André (sunday) and also Stefan and to a degree Sophie to initiate the election process

15:49:38 CorNouws looks as if I was on a wrong channel

15:49:40 louis_to the process to start with announcement about election, candidate nominations, etc., next week

15:49:55 CorNouws something else about elections ...

15:49:58 Thalion72 louis_to: just as a reminder http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Community_Council/Items/Election_Process_Proposal

15:50:11 CorNouws maybe the cc should have an opinion on my position (serving time)

15:50:17 louis_to yes, I am aware of that; that's why I would appreciate your contribution, Thalion72

15:51:07 louis_to CorNouws; personally, I find your contributions absolutely invaluable

15:51:08 Thalion72 CorNouws: do we need to have an opinion? do you suggest to change the charter again?

15:51:36 CorNouws louis_to: thanks; Thalion72 ;-)

15:51:54 CorNouws No, it's only that we are aware of the situation

15:52:15 Thalion72 CorNouws: we need to re-eleact all seats anyway :(

15:53:00 Thalion72 well .. action item is defined ... something more to elections? or next item?

15:53:11 CorNouws Thalion72: OTOH, finding fine candidates for the (close to) impossible task to replace Sophie and André, will keep us bussy for some time..

15:53:29 CorNouws (next item pls)

15:53:31 louis_to next one: update on trademark?

15:53:58 louis_to John? sophi?

15:54:21 sophi louis_to: I've a report to do from the three lawyers

15:54:53 louis_to ugh

15:54:55 sophi louis_to: as some remarks have been added, we need more comments on them

15:55:04 louis_to yes.

15:55:11 mhu wonders whether Sun Legal might have had a chance to look at any trademark draft

15:55:15 louis_to I will have time this end of week to revisit it

15:55:23 louis_to That was part of the idea...

15:55:35 jpmcc mhu: should we send it to IBM legal instead?

15:55:45 louis_to sun legal has become quite responsive; I must further add to issue related to tradarmark /google protection

15:55:52 sophi jpmcc: :)

15:55:56 louis_to jpmcc: groans.

15:56:03 mhu jpmcc: do you know more than me ? :-)

15:56:13 sophi louis_to: the lawyers that their is no hole but some items has to be precised

15:56:25 louis_to understood

15:56:25 sophi louis_to: I need to digg into and translate

15:56:33 CorNouws I thought John just spoke about free (open source) advice

15:56:34 louis_to do you have time to discuss it tomorrow?

15:56:42 louis_to perhasp IM?

15:57:09 sophi louis_to: they find the draft has a very good quality

15:57:25 _Nesshof_ sophi: which version ?

15:57:30 jpmcc sophi: congratulations

15:57:34 louis_to yes, indeed

15:57:39 sophi _Nesshof_: the one before your proposal

15:57:43 _Nesshof_ aha

15:57:47 louis_to :-)

15:58:23 sophi _Nesshof_: we didn't rewrite it with you proposal yet, we need comments from the other participant (if any ;)

15:58:33 _Nesshof_ is my proposal completly wrong ?

15:58:59 sophi _Nesshof_: no, see my comments, I find it very difficult to achieve from the community point of view

15:59:11 louis_to okay, AI: a statement of progress given by sophi: that she must go over 3 lawyers's comments; AI for Louis and sophi to discuss this via IM or IRC this week.

15:59:15 sophi _Nesshof_: but not wrong at all

15:59:18 louis_to sophi: is that fair and feasible?

15:59:24 _Nesshof_ I'm still wondering which problem we want to solve

15:59:46 CorNouws _Nesshof_: ?

15:59:47 louis_to we can have a group Irc discussion on this, of those who wish to join from here

15:59:50 sophi louis_to: next week, on the evening if it's possible for you, the week is already full

16:00:16 CorNouws I like to join such a meeting

16:00:21 sophi louis_to: I mean this week is already full

16:03:21 jpmcc zzz

16:03:27 louis_to yes, it is, which is why i was wondering if you could do it...

16:03:45 _Nesshof_ CorNouws: what is the problem we want to resolve with a tm policy ?

16:03:46 louis_to let's schedule for nexgt week; I'll go over the material with sleepy john

16:04:03 sophi louis_to: ok, thanks

16:04:50 Thalion72 _Nesshof_: we want to have a tm policy, so that we do not need to discuss about a tm policy anymore ;)

16:05:13 _Nesshof_ Thalion72: hmm, not that convincing

16:05:17 CorNouws _Nesshof_: I have the feeling that I might understand what you mean; will investigate next days

16:05:32 jpmcc louis_to: any update on the Google adwords / trademark formal complaint?

16:05:42 sophi _Nesshof_: this not a problem, just a definition : what is the OOo product, name and logo :)

16:05:45 louis_to jpmcc: yes, that's what I meant when I said I had to update the issue

16:06:14 _Nesshof_ sophi: why we do have to do that definition ?

16:06:49 jpmcc <note>Google adwords issue: http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=97164</note>

16:06:52 CorNouws ... trying to stimulate people doing a thing, or trying to prevent people doing a thing

16:07:21 sophi _Nesshof_: Google is your friend ;) I think we need to define this for the community, l10n, our users, etc....

16:07:38 Thalion72 jpmcc: TM will help in no way with this issue .. but ok,

16:07:55 _Nesshof_ sophi: I agree partly, see my extensions example ...

16:07:57 louis_to _Nesshof_: it can be an operational definition, ie, a binary or source derived from official serviers off the site

16:08:59 _Nesshof_ but the trademark policy should address a problem and should not just stand for itself

16:09:04 Thalion72 is it usefull to go into the details here?

16:09:08 sophi imho this can be discuss on the trademark list :)

16:09:14 Thalion72 _Nesshof_: correct

16:09:17 louis_to agreed

16:09:19 louis_to moving on:

16:09:46 louis_to spi messages

16:09:48 louis_to am doing it now

16:10:02 louis_to first one derives from 2006 council meeting:

16:10:04 louis_to http://council.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadMsg?listName=discuss&msgNo=969

16:10:21 louis_to discussion then captured in thread: http://council.openoffice.org/servlets/BrowseList?list=discuss&by=thread&from=1599233

16:11:02 louis_to I will send the detailed items, but key one is by me 04 December 2006

16:11:29 mhu still wonders who at SPI would be his contact (as a treasurer) to be kept up to date, and how to get at the collected money.

16:12:35 louis_to mhu: I've indicated this to you; we have to add you to the list and make you an or the advisor, or have a group alias, eg, adivsor-spi@council, instead of my email address, as is the case now

16:12:55 sophi mhu: the SPI treasurer is our contact here

16:13:13 louis_to AI: Louis to see about changing SPI alias to advisor-spi@council.

16:13:23 stx12 may i ask who the spi treasurer and our contact is atm?

16:13:30 mhu thanks, that answers part 1 of my question (and maybe you already answered it before)

16:13:40 louis_to mhu: as I wrote to you, we do not have direct access to the treasure reports, just to what the treasure tells us

16:14:05 mhu ...remains part 2: how are we supposed to spend the collected money ?

16:14:16 louis_to Michael Schultheiss

16:14:21 stx12 thx

16:14:27 sophi mhu: spend ? or collect ?

16:14:28 louis_to I can introduce you, too

16:14:56 CorNouws mhu: I guess we have freedom to choose we think is best..

16:14:59 mhu sophi: I mean spend, SPI is collecting, I want to spend :-)

16:15:00 louis_to mhu: how would spending the collected money differ in any way from money collected any other way?

16:15:09 louis_to why is there a difference at all?

16:15:19 louis_to is confused by this difference

16:15:19 CorNouws mhu: need ideas?

16:15:37 louis_to mhu: I'm also gettng a little upset here

16:15:39 CorNouws is working on an idea to spend much more

16:15:57 mhu thinks noone understands: the question is "how" technically, not "for what"

16:16:02 louis_to we have had many ideas for spending money on marketing related things--from travel to collaeral to events

16:16:15 CorNouws mhu: that is what I wrote: need ideas?

16:16:21 louis_to the for what has been abundantly answered. I am therefore stunned you should ask what you have.

16:16:28 louis_to wold you care to explain your point?

16:16:49 mhu no ideas, I want to have the money on my account ...

16:16:50 CorNouws louis_to: probably looking to the surplus of 2008 ?

16:17:27 CorNouws mhu: Ah, was reading you wrong - apllgs

16:17:29 mhu in even simpler words: spi has the money I want it; how do I get it

16:17:30 sophi louis_to: yes, we don't know how to get the money from SPI account

16:17:36 stx12 i understand that mhu's point is how money leaves the SPI account

16:18:32 CorNouws Are we able to solve that after this meeting??

16:18:41 stx12 on request to the SPI treasurer of the OOo treasurer?

16:18:54 sophi CorNouws: yes, I'll investigate :)

16:19:02 stx12 no, "we" just understood the problem ;-)

16:19:06 mhu oh, I dont expect resolution now; just that I would like to have this minor point calrified

16:19:37 mhu s/calrified/clarified/

16:19:38 louis_to ah.

16:19:43 louis_to thx for clarification

16:19:45 stx12 should stop with easy to be misunderstood ironie ;-)

16:19:46 louis_to I'll ask

16:20:10 stx12 do we have a recommendation we cah ask to be implemented?

16:21:03 mhu I think there must be an existing way for money to flow from spi; step one would be to get to know that way.

16:21:24 louis_to mhu: I just asked

16:21:33 mhu louis_to: thanks

16:21:39 louis_to cc'd sophi, mhu, stx12

16:21:53 louis_to also asked about changing email alias for delivery of tresaurer reports

16:22:04 sophi louis_to: thanks

16:22:40 louis_to do we have any new agenda items?

16:23:00 CorNouws louis_to: ??

16:23:07 CorNouws http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Community_Council/Agenda

16:23:21 louis_to odd, I missed that

16:23:52 louis_to ah. url is unfamiliar, I was using the old url

16:24:31 louis_to so, we are at #6

16:24:48 CorNouws Indeed

16:25:07 louis_to the two parts are:

16:25:08 CorNouws 2.6 to be more precise

16:25:21 louis_to 1. info on wiki

16:25:21 louis_to 2. further ideas / discussion

16:25:25 louis_to (yes; thanks)

16:25:37 CorNouws 2.6.1 is there is rought version

16:25:41 louis_to status on 2.6.1?

16:25:52 CorNouws 2.6.2 is where the cc comes in actively ;-)

16:26:09 louis_to proposal on this? we briefly raised it at OOoCon, you recall

16:26:10 Thalion72 ok, so I want to see 2.6.1 first :)

16:26:17 louis_to indeed

16:26:40 CorNouws linked from http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Community_Council

16:26:52 CorNouws you find http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Community_Council/Project_Improvements

16:26:57 louis_to CorNouws: would you drive this for the next meeting?

16:27:16 CorNouws See no need for that

16:27:22 louis_to I mean: would you raise the profile of this issue that is important so as to get us to contribute to it?

16:27:36 sophi CorNouws: may be first revive it on the list, could you post the links?

16:27:59 CorNouws sophi: already did that ..

16:28:01 louis_to right now, it's a skeleton wanting a body

16:28:12 louis_to part of the problem is that it is vague

16:28:21 CorNouws and I would like to know wht we all think of it

16:28:34 louis_to during OOoCon, I interpreted this as partly answered by the regional group idea

16:28:53 louis_to and I thought and continue to think that it is the most effective way of growing the community

16:29:03 louis_to as it has show real results

16:29:05 CorNouws louis_to: I do not see a relation to a thing we discussed in Beijing, sorry

16:29:12 louis_to how do you not?

16:29:35 louis_to For I am puzzled that you would think there is no relationship, sorry

16:29:47 CorNouws cause this is on cc level, not regional

16:30:18 louis_to hm. regional means enabling groups to do things that bring in contributors

16:30:30 CorNouws for example: mybe we find out that there are thing we need to do to make regional groups grow

16:30:33 louis_to where "groups" are geographicall based

16:30:37 CorNouws or to help other processes...

16:30:38 louis_to ah, I see

16:30:52 louis_to well, we discussed that at Bejing OOoCon, too

16:31:14 CorNouws did we, was I attending there ;-)

16:31:16 louis_to and the idea that was raised then by me was the establishment not of a bureaucracy but nevertheless of a kind of office

16:31:38 CorNouws this is not about bueaucracy

16:31:52 louis_to at the CC meeting, yes; at the regional groups meeting, no; at the marketing meeting, no; at the other meetings where this was discussed, I do not recall

16:32:09 louis_to I am not suggesting, CorNouws, it's about bureaucracy. quite the opposite

16:32:13 CorNouws it is about visibility, wareness, openness

16:32:23 CorNouws wareness = awareness

16:32:32 louis_to but these things do not count for very much absent specifics, I am sorry to say

16:32:33 sophi louis_to: first CJK meeting was on last Saturday, it was interesting and need to be advertized :)

16:32:35 CorNouws ah, sorry

16:32:49 louis_to it was also at 05:00 my time

16:33:02 CorNouws may I ask all here, to react on a mail that I can decide to send after this meeting, on this subject??

16:33:16 louis_to you just did :-)

16:33:28 sophi louis_to: I know, I didn't say that because you were not there, but because it's a step that need to be furthered

16:33:31 mhu CorNouws: yes, please go ahead

16:34:39 sophi louis_to: with other RegiGroups that are sleepy :)

16:34:47 CorNouws support from the treasurer .. most important, so is fine for me ;-)

16:35:21 louis_to sophi, well, I feel pretty strongly about regional groups and note they are not sleepy, just cannot communicate. I spent a couple of hours with the BR people last night... and some time with ES in Argentina today...

16:35:47 louis_to So. Cor, please send to list as you suggest.

16:35:54 louis_to Shall we move on to #3?

16:36:06 CorNouws ok 'll do so

16:36:09 louis_to thnx

16:36:10 CorNouws ys pls

16:36:27 louis_to (2009) Budget

16:36:27 louis_to 1. Is it possible to work with yearly spending / income sheets etc. (see irc log)

16:36:42 louis_to mhu? stx12?

16:37:01 mhu irc log? I only found minutes, but no log

16:37:24 mhu .i.e. what is the question, actually ?

16:37:36 louis_to yes, that question seems enigmatic to me

16:37:50 CorNouws what is enigm..?

16:37:54 louis_to puzzling

16:38:01 CorNouws ah ;-)

16:38:16 CorNouws the community has incomes and spendings

16:38:36 CorNouws so I would like that the cc has an overview

16:38:51 CorNouws and can inform comunity member that are interested in our well being

16:39:26 mhu hmm, an answer like "thanks, all is well" does not count ? :-)

16:39:40 louis_to :-)

16:39:56 mhu seriuosly, I think I understand the request

16:39:59 jpmcc It is normal in the UK for clubs, societies, etc to publish a 'Statement of Sources and Application of Funds' - where the money came from, and where it went...

16:40:19 CorNouws mhu: sounds fine, but could bemore encouraging..

16:40:25 CorNouws mhu: thanks ;-)

16:40:26 mhu jpmcc: yes, I understand; sorry I was joking

16:40:46 CorNouws mhu: serious ??

16:40:51 mhu yes

16:40:57 CorNouws :-)

16:41:24 CorNouws (was joking to)

16:41:55 mhu as martin stefan, and I explained in the past, teamooo still is waiting for tax statements for the years from 2003 until today ...

16:42:08 stx12 i think there is still some work necessary on the balances, tax documents and then we come back

16:42:35 CorNouws ok ... is team OOo to pay taxes??

16:42:37 jpmcc Provisional figures (subject to tax adjustments) are ok by me

16:42:48 mhu ...so I am still carefull with "income statements" when that income may actually go to the secretary of finance.

16:42:49 stx12 and that is more serious than i would like it to be...

16:43:30 stx12 hates tax declarations

16:43:39 mhu yes, understood; but other answers seem not well received

16:43:49 CorNouws stx12: then you have to do it as fast as possible ;-)

16:43:54 louis_to mhu, stx12: would hiring a n accountant help matters?

16:44:14 stx12 that's what martin is working on

16:44:31 stx12 a tax accuntant that means

16:44:48 louis_to yes.

16:44:55 mhu expedite work of local authorities ?

16:45:21 Thalion72 needs to leave soon

16:45:22 louis_to is that always wanted in the case of taxes? :-)

16:45:33 stx12 so we are coming closer to the relief; but i can't resist to state there is still some money to be spend - seriously

16:45:36 mhu needs to leave now also

16:45:37 louis_to okay, so the answer then is....

16:46:05 louis_to stx12: when I last requested money to spend my proposals were not that welcomed

16:46:32 louis_to I still should send the amount reimbursable for LCA 09, as approved by the budget directors in my area

16:46:37 CorNouws louis_to: there were other reasons for the marketing budget holders to be careful

16:46:46 louis_to but I do think that we need to allocate more funds to marketing-related events!!

16:46:53 stx12 but that's not the problem of the request for balance - we have the budgets for 2009

16:47:04 louis_to CorNouws: perhaps; mainly lack of knowledge of situation

16:47:15 louis_to stx12: then what is the problem?

16:47:27 CorNouws and at that time no idea of the budget

16:47:28 louis_to you mean the prior tax liable amounts

16:47:36 CorNouws and no plans for possible spendings

16:47:38 louis_to CorNouws; yes, I know, though one could do a good guess

16:47:43 CorNouws which still is the case ...

16:47:59 louis_to CorNouws; this i not news, exactly, you know; and one can still do a fairly good estimate

16:48:09 louis_to the basic point remains that we have a lot of money

16:48:16 stx12 we can argue about an increase of the budgets if the money that is allocated for 2009 is all spent

16:48:17 CorNouws louis_to: I agree...

16:48:18 louis_to we do not know precisely how much

16:48:40 louis_to and we must be careful b/c we may be liable, I take it, for prior tax years?

16:48:40 stx12 we knopw what we work with for 2009 - so let's go ahead

16:48:52 louis_to stx12: that is what is wanted by the question

16:48:59 louis_to so that we can in fact plan and reimburse

16:49:27 louis_to there are several important events upcoming that we need collateral for, booth spaces, and even travel for those presenting there, or otherwise relevant

16:50:08 CorNouws louis_to: all: pls send info estimates to budget@ .. so that we can more or less plan!

16:50:21 louis_to CorNouws, of course

16:50:22 stx12 i think we stated often enugh - in 2008 and 2009 - that we can work with the budgets that have been defined. i can only urge the budget holders (including me) to do so..

16:50:39 Thalion72 this is btw. what we asked for for a while

16:50:45 louis_to Shall we make this an urgent AI for budget holders?

16:50:52 louis_to +1

16:51:04 CorNouws and - repeating myself - all to give info about possible spendings

16:51:25 jpmcc I still feel vaguely uneasy about being told there is a pot of money to spend without having any idea where it came from, how much is liable to be repeated annually, and how much is from one-off historic items.

16:51:26 CorNouws els budget holders have a tough job ... can I spend 20% now ... how much will be asked later ??

16:51:45 Thalion72 louis_to: this has been an AI for budget holders on 2009-01-22 already

16:51:51 louis_to AI for budget holders: to send to the budget list information of what they want money for and why for the coming quarter

16:51:55 louis_to yes, I know, but it's not being acted on

16:52:03 louis_to so, I think renewing it then.

16:52:15 mhu wonders, why he is spending money from the 2009 budget already for about 3 months, and still people complain they are not reimbursed ?

16:52:28 louis_to mhu: b/c I have not sent you my statement

16:52:40 louis_to mhu: I was not complaining, btw

16:52:52 mhu so, then why didnt you send it; others are doing it

16:53:04 louis_to refrains from commenting

16:53:26 CorNouws mhu: do you wnat to lend my stick ;-)

16:53:48 louis_to okay, budget holders to review the AI from 22 January and renewed, to submit to the budget list the desiderata and amounts

16:53:49 mhu I simply dont understand the problem, sorry

16:54:16 louis_to mhu: afaik, there is no problem with reimbursements; it's the idea of future expenses

16:54:24 mhu there are budgets assigned, and I am spending them

16:54:49 louis_to the amount allocated from the provisional budget for mktng struck me as too low

16:55:03 mhu jpmcc: right, we spent parts of the marketing budget ?

16:55:07 louis_to but that can be further discussed at a later time. we are now approaching 1.5 hours

16:55:47 jpmcc mhu: I don't think I've rejected any requests for expenditure to date.

16:56:01 mhu right, thanks

16:56:12 CorNouws jpmcc: but not answered all either..

16:56:14 louis_to notes that that does not count his rejection of mine

16:56:50 mhu louis_to: but yours was accepted also, or did I miss something ?

16:57:01 louis_to mhu: not by marketing

16:57:17 CorNouws thinks John needs a good secretary, doing the mail and so on

16:57:25 jpmcc louis_to: you have your own pot - hands off the MP's ;-)

16:57:29 louis_to but this is not relevant to this discussion

16:57:40 mhu ah, but that makes no difference for the treasurer

16:57:51 louis_to which has to do with understanding the yearly amount available

16:57:55 louis_to to all of us

16:58:07 jpmcc CorNouws: or a less efficient spam filter ;-)

16:58:11 louis_to and to helping therefore the treasurer with making budget

16:59:01 mhu lets first try to spend the assigned budget ...

16:59:30 louis_to so, the logistical solution you prefer is to spend until we run out? then if we run out, to give us more money?

16:59:33 louis_to I find that difficult to accept

17:00:00 mhu you should accept the assigned budget, where is the problem

17:00:01 louis_to as it will impose a self-restricting spending economy, an economy of parsimony that may be totally unwanted

17:00:27 louis_to why should any of us accept the assigned budget if there is in fact a lot more money available?

17:00:40 louis_to I feel that there are secrets or mysteries here that are unwanted

17:00:51 mhu 2008: assigned 70K, spent 2K, thats what I am talking about

17:01:17 Thalion72 mhu: so why is the total budget for 2009 just the same as 2008?

17:01:19 louis_to in 2009, we may have more; we did not spend in 2008, mhu, because we had no apparatus to identify things to spend it on

17:01:25 louis_to now we do

17:01:26 jpmcc louis_to: result!

17:01:37 Thalion72 if we spent almost nothing in 2008, we should have the double amount available

17:01:39 stx12 then let us clarify the uncertainty with the tax authorities.

17:01:48 louis_to yet we are still parsimonious when it comes to spending as we stil do not know how much money in total we have really

17:02:02 mhu how does money that is not spent double itself ?

17:02:14 louis_to mhu: I feel I'm going in circles here

17:02:24 Thalion72 mhu: because of the mystery of "income"

17:02:31 mhu i feel nobody is listening

17:02:33 jpmcc mhu: there are some of my colleagues in RBS who can explain that to you ;-)

17:02:40 Thalion72 the thing nobody seems to be able to talk about

17:02:52 stx12 jpmcc: but omly a few...

17:02:56 CorNouws mhu: Possibly we had the idea that the 2008 budget was based on 2008 incomes

17:03:35 CorNouws mhu: and maybe that was wrong, but we simply do not know ;-)

17:03:54 CorNouws stx12: :-)

17:04:58 CorNouws mhu: and so we expect the same income in 2009 >>> there you have the doubling minus 2 k

17:05:41 mhu the 2008 budget was based on what we had end of 2007 and we were comfortable offering to spend; 2009 would be based on 2008 ...

17:06:12 CorNouws mhu: ah, so our idea was simply not correct, or not precize enough

17:06:14 mhu but nobody has spent somethhing, so why double the budget ?

17:06:28 CorNouws mhu: of course not, but that is another question

17:06:45 mhu why is that another question ?

17:08:00 paveljanik quite a long discussion today.

17:08:03 CorNouws mhu: because if you think each year has income X, than in two years you have 2X to spend (apart from reservations, which we did not talk about)

17:08:34 CorNouws and the idea about a possible budget

17:08:53 CorNouws is not the same as the ideas you make about where to spend your mony on

17:09:03 mhu but we have an idea of a possible budget: same as last year

17:09:18 CorNouws mhu: ... does that make sense??

17:09:19 Thalion72 mhu: and .. TeamOOo is collecting funds for the community (at least it is promoted this way). But the community does not know, how much fund we get.

17:09:40 mhu yes, understood

17:09:57 CorNouws mhu: give me your phone, I'll call tomorrow, I think it is easier to understand each other then

17:10:01 mhu but I also tried to explain the situation (tax et al)

17:10:23 CorNouws mhu: yes thanks, good info I was not aware of

17:10:26 louis_to to put it bluntly: you cannot tell us details because you do not know your tax liablity?

17:11:02 mhu I know what I have on the account, and i dont know how much tax i will need to pay, yes

17:11:05 louis_to however, we are puzzled that for the last 6 or so years, during which team O. has been collecting funds, the sum total is still oddly about the same?

17:11:12 louis_to and our budget too?

17:11:30 louis_to but mhu: you can estimate this. all of do this all the time, when we pay taxes.

17:11:41 louis_to we estimate our liablity based on published tax rates

17:12:00 louis_to this allows us to think ahead

17:12:06 mhu this has nothing to do with personal tax statements, this is totally new to me

17:12:17 CorNouws rephrase John: we can publish provisional, and state that tax addaptions possible

17:12:21 louis_to I understand that; that is why I suggested hiring an accounttant

17:12:28 louis_to I agree with Cor

17:12:46 CorNouws In the Netherlands, a eV does not have to pay taxes

17:12:51 mhu that will not help, as I said; we are waiting on lawyers and authorities

17:12:52 CorNouws does not have to hire an accountant

17:13:09 CorNouws can jest ask the memebrs todo check & balances

17:13:20 CorNouws jest = just (need more wine ;-) )

17:13:38 sophi CorNouws: same in France

17:13:38 jpmcc CorNouws: less wine

17:13:50 CorNouws more beer then?

17:13:57 mhu mabe I need wine, too :-)

17:14:33 Thalion72 CorNouws: this is the difference of being a charity or not here in Germany (basically)

17:14:51 louis_to all, I suggest we continue this discussion via phone next week

17:14:52 mhu yes, and teamooo is not a charity

17:15:22 louis_to I have to be going, too, and I imagine others, do, too

17:15:24 jpmcc louis_to: +1

17:15:34 stx12 Thalion72: there are different levels of charities / associations in germany. fully tax exempted, some exemptions, ...

17:15:35 CorNouws mhu: Probably you had spent more time for other important jobs for OOo

17:15:58 CorNouws louis_to: +1

17:16:08 louis_to I would suggest then that we close this meeting now, and have a phone conversation next week; i can send out the conference information

17:16:19 louis_to and will send out irc log tonight to this meeting

17:16:19 mhu yes, lets finish for today; I understood what you were trying to tell me; and I see what can be improved in the future; but I also need to take care of taxes

17:16:31 jpmcc We should all go and drink a bottle to celebrate 50 million downloads!

17:16:36 louis_to thanks. sorry if I got upset, it's been, for me, a very very long day

17:16:38 louis_to yes.

17:16:40 louis_to :-)

17:16:42 CorNouws yes, not on Tuesday and Wednesday between 9:00 and 13:00 UT Cpls

17:16:53 louis_to I'd say drink some fine gemran beer, but that seems redundant :_0

17:16:59 Thalion72 jpmcc: and a second bottle to celebrate a Council meeting with 9 attendees

17:17:00 sophi sad that we didn't have time to discuss Rafaella resquest

17:17:11 louis_to I think we can do so onlist?

17:17:17 mhu now gets himself a beer :-)

17:17:26 louis_to sophi: it's really getting late

17:17:43 CorNouws sophi: louis_to: yes, the request is clead, and Stefan has the money

17:17:44 sophi louis_to: yes I know, I've to go also

17:18:55 CorNouws I propose to have 2.6 and 4 from this meeting on top of the next agenda...

17:19:18 louis_to that's fine.

17:19:19 CorNouws before the AI (that we will have finished any way ..)

17:19:33 sophi CorNouws: may be RC 1 won't be there ;)

17:19:35 stx12 first i agree what the problem rafaella describes should be solved. but between a problem description and an available budget there is a gap...

17:19:40 louis_to I move to adjourn, then, and follow CorNouws's suggestion for next meeting; and to schedule a phone conference for next week

17:20:14 CorNouws I'll take care of part of the next meetings agenda

17:20:14 paveljanik ok, bye

17:20:23 louis_to thx, CorNouws

17:20:34 mhu bye all, see you next week

17:20:36 CorNouws bye all, and sleep well zzzz

17:20:41 sophi bye all

17:20:44 louis_to bye all

17:20:53 louis_to meeting adjourned