Log Mac Meeting 15 June 2007

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[21:05]shaunmcdonald:let's start the meeting

[21:05] shaunmcdonald:1. Welcome new devs joining Mac OS X port

[21:05] shaunmcdonald:are there any new devs lurking today

[21:05] shaunmcdonald:?

[21:05]hub:just lurking, not a Mac dev on

[21:06]ericb2:hub: be welcome anyway :)[21:06]johanhenselmans_ joined the chat room.

[21:07]boulifb:does someone know if an IDE exists in text mode that runs in the console on Mac OSX ?

[21:07]shaunmcdonald:johanhenselmans: have you introduced yourself to the mac port at a meeting?

[21:07]hub:boulifb: emacs

[21:07] hub:boulifb: or vi

[21:07]CerebrosuS:vim

[21:07] CerebrosuS:oh hehe

[21:07]boulifb:these are text editors... not IDEs ;)[21:07]johanhenselmans left the chat room. (Connection timed out)

[21:08]hub:boulifb: wrong[21:08]johanhenselmans_ is now known as johanhenselmans.

[21:08]hub:boulifb: you can build from them

[21:08] hub:boulifb: M-x compile in emacs

[21:08] hub:

             :-)           

[21:08]boulifb:we can debug programs?

[21:08]fheckl:you are getting off-topic right now

[21:08]paveljanik:a bit ;-)

[21:08]boulifb:yeah, know ;)

[21:08] boulifb:

             :p           

[21:08]ericb2:fheckl: hi Florian :)

[21:09]boulifb:we'll continue after the meeting

[21:09]fheckl:ericb2: hi Eric

[21:09]shaunmcdonald:so no new devs are here?

[21:10] shaunmcdonald:lets move on then

[21:10] shaunmcdonald:2. Last Aqua news / Work in progress

[21:10]hub:• hub still hasn't build OOo on Mac

[21:10]PhilippL:news: Carbon is not going to be actively supported any longer, the same with ATSUI.

[21:11]CerebrosuS:hm?

[21:11]paveljanik : PhilippL: what do you exactly mean under "Carbon"?

[21:11]PhilippL:the Carbon UI libraries.

[21:11]CerebrosuS:support from apple? you mean?[21:11]spiral joined the chat room.

[21:12]spiral:hello

[21:12]CerebrosuS:hi

[21:12]PhilippL:They will not be available in 64 bits and they will not be actively supported anymore. Similar to QuickDraw.

[21:12]CerebrosuS:Ahh, ... i heard only cocoa will, right

[21:12]CerebrosuS:?[21:13]lgodard left the chat room. ("Leaving.")

[21:13]PhilippL:yes. They not going to vanish soon or so, but they are a dead track.

[21:13]paveljanik:PhilippL: so e.g. HIView, HIToolbox, Menu manager?

[21:13]PhilippL:exactly.

[21:14]CerebrosuS:e.g. means?

[21:14]PhilippL:At some point (preferably soon) we should switch to Cocoa.

[21:14]paveljanik:can we combine Cocoa UI elements with Carbon UI elements?

[21:14]spiral:CerebrosuS: it's latin for "for example"

[21:14]PhilippL:Supposedly a

[21:14]CerebrosuS:ok thx

[21:14]PhilippL:sorry, supposedly yes.

[21:14]fheckl:paveljanik: yes

[21:14]paveljanik:so it is good! ;-)

[21:14]PhilippL:so we can actually have a gradual transition.

[21:15]paveljanik:we can *slowly* work on it without interruption now ;-)

[21:15] paveljanik:the *last* thing I want to do on mac Port is to learn Objective-C ;-)

[21:15]PhilippL:Well, at some point it would certainly help :-)

[21:16]CerebrosuS:objective-c? hmpf

[21:16]ismael_:FYI, damien continued my work on cursors using COCOA for more flexibility for mouse cursors( to use some OOo specific cursors)

[21:16]CerebrosuS:for what?

[21:16]hub:paveljanik: objective-C is dead easy, even if all you want is calling Cocoa API

[21:16]CerebrosuS:coca is in objective-c?

[21:16]PhilippL:Actually it should be objective c++, which mixes objective c and c++ in the same files.

[21:16] PhilippL:CerebrosuS: yes

[21:16]CerebrosuS:hmpf

[21:16]boulifb:Objective C is the preferred programming language for Cocoa environment

[21:17]PhilippL:Actually I think it's the only one ?

[21:17]boulifb:I think so

[21:17]spiral:PhilippL: no, there's objective-c++ first, & java

[21:17]boulifb:I mistaken with Aqua

[21:17] boulifb:lol

[21:17]hub:PhilippL: yeah I explained that a couple of days ago. dead easy too

[21:17]fheckl:there are Java and Python bridges, and Ruby coming with 10.5

[21:17]boulifb:Cocoa is the preferred environment for Aqua layer

[21:17]hub:spiral: cocoa java is deprecated

[21:18]CerebrosuS:java shouuld be a good thing

[21:18]hub:boulifb: no it is carbon currently

[21:18] hub:CerebrosuS: no

[21:18]boulifb:I have to read the doc again ;)

[21:18] boulifb:Mac OS X development is too new for me

[21:18]PhilippL:well, we're not doing java or python or so, we do c++ and that will mix best with objective c

[21:19]CerebrosuS:sure PhilippL you'are right

[21:19] CerebrosuS:so /me will learn objective-c

[21:19]PhilippL:at least that's what i was told here :-)

[21:19]boulifb:parts of ooo are made in Objective-C?

[21:19]hub:boulifb: no

[21:19] hub:boulifb: C++

[21:19]boulifb:ok

[21:19]CerebrosuS:boulifb, coca is

[21:19]PhilippL:not yet, but if we want to do cocoa, then we will.

[21:19]boulifb:ok... cocoa only in Objective-C

[21:20]CerebrosuS:we can interface an mix it, ...

[21:20]ericb2:I'd suggest to clearly separate : 1) provide a working Carbon application 2) start Cocoa migration

[21:21]PhilippL:+1

[21:21]spiral:+1

[21:21]hub:0

[21:21]CerebrosuS:the only best thing i think ericb2

[21:21]PhilippL:other news: ericb2 and I had talks to apple UI people and got a bundle of suggestions what we should change.

[21:21] PhilippL:we will post a summary report and begin talks with ux team.

[21:22]shaunmcdonald:PhilippL: brilliant, any quick examples?

[21:22]ismael_:ericb2: 3) use cocoa when carbon can't be used (for cursors for example)

[21:22]CerebrosuS:ok

[21:22]ericb2:ismael_: as a begining, yes : we need people experiment Cocoa binding when forced

[21:22]PhilippL:Example: OK button is right on mac, cancel left next to it.

[21:22] PhilippL:example: labels and there respective text fields are center aligned.

[21:22]ericb2:shaunmcdonald: we wil complete

[21:23]PhilippL:example: our "wizards" should be "assistants"

[21:23]shaunmcdonald:PhilippL: many of these could go to the ux team to see if they could be done ooo wide, or need to be done just for the mac

[21:23]PhilippL:example: On Mac no visible accelerators.

[21:23]hub:shaunmcdonald: valid for Gnome too

[21:23]ericb2:only one line of tabs

[21:23]PhilippL:oh, some of them should definitely be mac only.

[21:24]ericb2:and remove icons from main menus is suggested too

[21:24]PhilippL:the point is that we need a layout management system to achieve that that is customizable in this regard.

[21:24]PhilippL:Actually the omission things are easy o course :-)

[21:24]hub:PhilippL: there is a SoC working on a new layout for OOo

[21:24] hub:PhilippL: so that might come

[21:24]CerebrosuS:SoC?

[21:25]hub:Summer Of Code

[21:25]CerebrosuS:ok

[21:25]shaunmcdonald:ericb2: the removal of the icons from the main menus is just a config change for Mac OS X only

[21:25]PhilippL:hub: yes. But they sure have not so drastic changes in mind. I'll talk to cl and mmeeks about that.

[21:25]hub:PhilippL: mmeeks is the mentor, so yes

[21:25]ericb2:• ericb2 thinks needed changes are deep, and need UX project approbation / help

[21:26] ericb2:... and they could concern all platforms

[21:26]PhilippL:Yes, and then there's the small issue of changing each and every dialog :-)

[21:26]ericb2:PhilippL: indeed :)

[21:27]paveljanik:I'd like to point out that the first goal of our project was to provide OOo for Mac without X11.

[21:27] paveljanik: ;-)

[21:27]hub:to start with Cocoa, you could do the fpicker with Cocoa :-)

[21:27]PhilippL:paveljanik: We'll do. But that cannot be the end.

[21:27]paveljanik:PhilippL: yes, definitely

[21:27]PhilippL:hub: good idea, that is a contained area.

[21:28]shaunmcdonald:we have to watch as the ux project response time is often slow

[21:28]PhilippL:Who did the aquafilepicker ?

[21:28]shaunmcdonald:the ux project doesn't have enough resources

[21:28] shaunmcdonald:to cope with all the possible requests that it could get

[21:28]ericb2:shaunmcdonald: I'll discuss with Matthias Muller Prove

[21:29]PhilippL:Yes. But fortunately they like the mac, maybe that helps.

[21:29]shaunmcdonald:ericb2: ok, I'm on the disscuss@ux list

[21:29]ericb2:shaunmcdonald: I'll subscribe

[21:29]shaunmcdonald:PhilippL: it helps a lot on what I've seen

[21:30]ericb2:shaunmcdonald: maybe we could invite them on a next IRC meeting

[21:30]ismael_:ericb2: i also planned to subscribe

[21:30]ericb2:ismael_: good

[21:30]fheckl:PhilippL: I did, but I think it doesn't offer as much functionality with Cocoa than using NavgationServices API

[21:31]CerebrosuS:so, i'm sorry but i have to go, ....

[21:31]• CerebrosuS will rea the logs

[21:31] CerebrosuS:nice day to all

[21:31]ericb2:CerebrosuS: see you

[21:31]ismael_:what is interesting with the aqua port, is that as we start "from zero" to have a working application, we have a new look on OOo

[21:31]PhilippL:fheckl: would you be willing to give it a try ?[21:32]CerebrosuS left the chat room. ("Leaving")

[21:32]fheckl:PhilippL: I can, as time permits... :)

[21:32]ismael_:and this new look allow us to find the problems of OOo UI

[21:32]PhilippL:fheckl: of course

[21:33]ismael_:and the most important is that this will profit for all platorm

[21:33]shaunmcdonald:we have ooo 3.0 coming in sep 2008, which will probably need some big ui changes

[21:33]PhilippL:Yes, e.g. we got a suggestion how to replace the multiple layered tab control.

[21:34]hub:PhilippL: please :-0

[21:34]ericb2:ismael_: I'll explain you what is does consist in

[21:34]hub:maybe OOo will have on Mac OpenXML support and VBA before Microsoft :-)

[21:34] hub:that would kick ass :-)

[21:35]ericb2:hub: Microsoft could surprise us soon

[21:35]hub:they won't

[21:35]ericb2:hub: I'd prefer stay prudent

[21:35]hub:no surprise here

[21:35] hub:OOo will still have better VBA support in the end :-)

[21:36] hub:(on Mac)

[21:36]PhilippL:well, one can dream :-)

[21:36]hub:PhilippL: they slashed it in Office 2008

[21:36] hub:PhilippL: apparently hard to port

[21:36]PhilippL:Oh ?

[21:36]spiral:so they say...

[21:36]hub:• hub think conspiracy to not make the mac too attractive

[21:37] hub:spiral: they have been pretty vocal about it

[21:37]ericb2:• ericb2 ask to stay prudent again

[21:37]spiral:hub: yeah, but I don't believe everything microsoft says ;-)[21:37]johanhenselmans left the chat room. (Connection timed out)

[21:37]hub:spiral: you think I do?

[21:37] hub:FUD

[21:37]ericb2:may we continue with last Aqua news ?

[21:38] ericb2:if I'm not wrong pdf export works

[21:38] ericb2:other text issues are fixed

[21:38]paveljanik:but not all.

[21:38]PhilippL:... but not all text issues are ixed ...

[21:38]ericb2:paveljanik: indeed

[21:38]paveljanik:I still have to file my "Central" issue.

[21:38] paveljanik:ericb2: can you show it to PhilippL?

[21:39]ericb2:paveljanik: sure : create an empty document, center text and type space ?

[21:39]paveljanik:no.

[21:39]PhilippL:paveljanik: will do offline

[21:39]paveljanik:type Central and type SPACE.

[21:39] paveljanik:r is then displayed as rr because of refresh.

[21:40] paveljanik:wheel down up fixes it

[21:40]ericb2:paveljanik: we triggered other drawing issues

[21:40] ericb2:paveljanik: just play with Quartz debug tool

[21:40] ericb2:paveljanik: sometimes, move the mouse does draw the frame until 10 times ..

[21:40]PhilippL:paveljanik: I see it. I told Herbert already.

[21:41]paveljanik:PhilippL: ah, OK.

[21:41] paveljanik:we should not forget that tinor committed cut&paste.

[21:41]ericb2:paveljanik: +1

[21:41] ericb2:and PhilippL commited paveljanik code to make saltimer warning free

[21:41] ericb2:and alll vcl warning free (for aquavcl01)

[21:42]paveljanik:and the vcl not being WaE clean workaround was removed ;-)

[21:42] paveljanik:so starting from now on, we can compile with WaE turned on.

[21:42]PhilippL:Have we committed the window background thing yet ?

[21:42]ericb2:PhilippL: I didn't : I'll send the patch to Ismael first, no

[21:42] ericb2:?

[21:42]PhilippL:yes, good idea.

[21:43]ericb2:we have window background using Aqua theme now

[21:43]PhilippL:at least in dialogs and in the status bar.

[21:43]ericb2:fheckl: they are some issue on Leopard : flipped bitmaps, and funky colors. Could you please have a look ?

[21:44]PhilippL:fheckl: yes the bitmaps are flipped and the mask color does not seem to work.

[21:44]fheckl:ericb2: you mean in the screenshot I sent you?

[21:44]ericb2:fheckl: sorry, I forgot .. let me check

[21:44]PhilippL:fheckl: actually we saw that on a live pre leopard here.

[21:45]ericb2:important info : we can share leopard beta we received between OpenOffice.org devs

[21:45]fheckl:PhilippL: yes, I saw it with an earlier Leopard build already

[21:45] fheckl:PhilippL: but I am not familiar with any of the bitmap code :(

[21:45]PhilippL:however please do not distribute it further and it will legally expire.

[21:46]ericb2:the only thing is to stay discrete (not publy screenshots on blogs or so .. )

[21:46] ericb2:fheckl: ismael_ is

[21:46]paveljanik:• paveljanik things someone wants to limit his freedom ;-)

[21:46]fheckl:paveljanik: yes, but you get something for it :)

[21:47]paveljanik:so no, I do not want it nor want to see it.

[21:47]PhilippL:paveljanik: If you're on the apple dev connection and wait a month or so you'll get a newer download.

[21:47]ismael_:ericb2: fheckl : i think it 's an indianness problem

[21:47]paveljanik:PhilippL: I'll wait and buy it when it is ready ;-)

[21:47]hub:• hub +1 with paveljanik [21:47]• hub talk about freedom limitation

[21:48]paveljanik: ;-)

[21:48]hub:PhilippL: even ADC online?

[21:48]fheckl:hub: no

[21:48]ismael_:fheckl: ericb2 : the patch mox sent me concerning indianness made the same effects (yellow colors ofr images)

[21:48]hub:• hub isn't surprised

[21:48]PhilippL:hub: hmm, i was told dev connection, so i actually don't know.

[21:48]fheckl:hub: select and premier only

[21:48] fheckl:you need a software seed key

[21:49]hub:fheckl: I know the drill

[21:49]paveljanik:ismael_: maybe mox fixed the Leopard bug but haven't checked it on Tiger? ;-)

[21:49]ericb2:ismael_: I first was thinking to mask issue, or bad color space. But yes, now you say me it could be endian issue, maybe it is

[21:50]PhilippL:ericb2, ismael_: That wouldn't explain the flipped image.

[21:50]ericb2:PhilippL: context issue

[21:50]ismael_:paveljanik: it was some months ago but mox may have had a pre-alpha leopard version ;-)

[21:51] ismael_:PhilippL: yes, maybe coord problem

[21:51]ericb2:ismael_: I tested last year , but X11 version only

[21:51]PhilippL:ericb2: Yes, but if we had the context wrong, why would it work on tiger ?

[21:51]ismael_:PhilippL: maybe the answer is in the changelog of leopard

[21:51]ericb2:PhilippL: it first was wrong ( before ismael changes)

[21:52] ericb2:PhilippL: and maybe Apple stuff modified -one more time - for Leopard

[21:52]PhilippL:we'll see.

[21:52]ericb2:PhilippL: I'd be curious to see Ismael changes reversed ( the one about color issues )

[21:53] ericb2:fheckl: do you remember the date of your mail ?[21:53]• ericb2 has hundred of mails with fheckl :)

[21:53]fheckl:• fheckl looking

[21:54]PhilippL:One other thing: We'll have do decide what our baseline should be. Because if we want it to be tiger we can't switch to CoreText but need to stick with ATSUI.

[21:54]fheckl:ericb2: 20070528T22:56:xx

[21:55]ericb2:fheckl: not on my machine. Can you resend it please ?

[21:55] ericb2:fheckl: it is on my home machine only, sorry

[21:55]hub:ericb2: you are not running Leopard?

[21:56] hub: ;-)

[21:56]ericb2:hub: no

[21:56]PhilippL:hub: and loose his working system ? ;-)

[21:56]hub:to bad, you could access it otherwise ;-)

[21:56]ericb2:hub: I'll probably test on a safe partition

[21:56]fheckl:ericb2: no problem. it's on the way

[21:56]ericb2:fheckl: thank you

[21:57] ericb2:Other Aqua news ?[21:58]• ericb2 fear the order of the agenda is not really respected today

[21:59]ismael_:as i wrote on my blog i implemented the two different styles of tabs

[21:59]ericb2:ismael_: did you comit the changes ?

[21:59] ericb2:ismael_: I got infos for you

[21:59]ismael_:ericb2: not yet

[22:00] ismael_:ericb2: it concerns also the platform independent part of VCl

[22:00]ericb2:ismael_: ok

[22:00] ericb2:ismael_: FYI : Version is 1 in the header ( 0 was old version only )

[22:00]ismael_:ericb2: and i had a lot work this week

[22:00]ericb2:ismael_: we have to ask in common part wich tab is the first one one and wich one is the last one, to paint borders properly.

[22:00] ericb2:todo : add code in common part + implement

[22:00] ericb2:ismael_: use kHIThemeTabKindNormal only

[22:00] ericb2:Possible cases (from HITheme.h ) :

[22:00] ericb2:kHIThemeTabPositionFirst, kHIThemeTabPositionMiddle, kHIThemeTabPositionLast, kHIThemeTabPositionOnly

[22:01] ericb2:are the correct constants to be used

[22:01]ismael_:ericb2: yes that's what i'm using

[22:02]ericb2:ismael_: so your plain correct :-)[22:02]johanhenselmans_ joined the chat room.[22:02]johanhenselmans_ is now known as johanhenselmans.

[22:02]ismael_:ericb2: there's just the case of only one tab i don't test yet

[22:02]ericb2:ismael_: for only one line of tabs, we have to implement a new behabiour

[22:02] ericb2:ismael_: I'll search the correct constant to be used ( not in mind right now )

[22:03]ismael_:ericb2: what behaviour?

[22:03] ismael_:ericb2: one line or one tab?

[22:03]ericb2:ismael_: when too much tabs have to be drawn, we have to use a "popup like" tab

[22:03]PhilippL:ismael_: in case too many tabs, you don't do two lines, but have one popup selector with the missing tabs.

[22:03]ismael_:ericb2: yes it's more aqua[22:04]doctype left the chat room.

[22:04]ericb2:ismael_: containing the list, including a checkmark (for current selected tab)

[22:04]PhilippL:ismael_: similar to what we do in the toolbar menus.

[22:04]ericb2:ismael_: and the selected tab should be in the middle, not on extrem left nor extrem right[22:04]• ericb2 just forgot the constant name

[22:04]ismael_:PhilippL: ericb2 : yes but this means a lot of changes in the plaform independent part of VCL

[22:05]PhilippL:isamel_: certainly.

[22:05]ericb2:ismael_: yes, probably

[22:05]PhilippL:ismael_: but i think this is something we want to do in all platforms.

[22:05]ericb2:• ericb2 applaudes :)

[22:05]ismael_:next week i won't have much time as i have my exams, but i'll can do it after

[22:06]ericb2:ismael_: no problem I'll have a lot of work next week too

[22:06] ericb2:ismael_: for my real job

[22:06] ericb2:other news ?

[22:06]PhilippL:ismael_: moreover please keep the current code of TabControl and make this configurable, please.

[22:06]ismael_:ericb2: PhilippL : i learned a lot from tabctrl.cxx, and i think i can do it

[22:06]ericb2:ismael_: good :)

[22:06]PhilippL:ismael_: great :-)

[22:07]shaunmcdonald:3. Start aquavcl01 cws integration (part2)

[22:07]ismael_:PhilippL: the last patch i provided contains a #ifdef OLD_TAB_STYLE

[22:07]ericb2:fheckl: confirmed

[22:07]ismael_:so that we can choose the style of tab to use

[22:07]ericb2:fheckl: same issues

[22:07]PhilippL:ismael_: perfect.

[22:07]ericb2:ismael_: new style

[22:08] ericb2:without any hesitation

[22:08]PhilippL:concerning integration I'd opt to stabilize aquavcl01 and integrate soon.

[22:08]ericb2:PhilippL: ++

[22:08]shaunmcdonald:+1

[22:09] shaunmcdonald:then we can be testing other CWSes in Aqua

[22:09]ericb2:shaunmcdonald: and start parallel things

[22:09]shaunmcdonald:as well as X11 on the mac

[22:09]paveljanik:I won't vote because I already work on it anyway ;-)

[22:09]ericb2:who is volunteer to help paveljanik ?[22:09]• ericb2 is asap

[22:09]PhilippL:then that's settled :-)

[22:10]shaunmcdonald:what does it involve?

[22:10]PhilippL:I'll build platforms other than mac and provide them to QA.

[22:10]shaunmcdonald:anything to train a monkey with?

[22:10]PhilippL:Do we have a QARep yet ?[22:10]spiral left the chat room. ("Bye")

[22:11]ericb2:other point : I'd like people confirm changes in issue 75228 fixed

[22:11] ericb2:issue 78129

[22:11]IZBot:porting PATCH RESOLVED FIXED aquavcl01: WaE for vcl/aqua/source/app/saltimer.cxx http://qa.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=75228

[22:11] IZBot:porting DEFECT NEW [aqua] Crash when trying to check spelling http://qa.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=78129

[22:11]shaunmcdonald:PhilippL: we haven't even QA'ed 2.2.1 for X11 on the Mac in the en-US lang[22:11]ericblowsgoats joined the chat room.

[22:11]paveljanik:PhilippL: well, once we are prepared for normal QA, I'll tell you ;-)

[22:12]PhilippL:The mac QA won't be a problem, but e.g. solarisjogi will wnat to check our CWS on the other platforms.

[22:12]paveljanik:I want it too.

[22:13]ericb2:ericblowsgoats: can you please modify your nickname. thanks

[22:13]PhilippL:There were changes to non mac specific code, so the we'll have to check.

[22:13]paveljanik:and as I know it will be a problem, I'll first work on making it clean

[22:14]ericb2:• ericb2 will kick ericblowsgoats [22:15]ericblowsgoats was kicked from the chat room by ericb2. (ericb2)

[22:16]shaunmcdonald:we must not forget to test the X11 mac for the CWS aquavcl01

[22:16]ericb2:shaunmcdonald: we will

[22:18]shaunmcdonald:anything else on the aquavcl01 integration?

[22:18]ericb2:shaunmcdonald: sleep a bit ? :-)

[22:18]shaunmcdonald: :-)

[22:18] shaunmcdonald:4. OOoCon 2007 : Mac OS x port proposal

[22:19]ericb2:just bezfore next point : I'd like to congratulate Herbert Duerr for all his work

[22:19] ericb2:this is incredible work btw

[22:20] ericb2:who proposed something, and is accepted ?

[22:20]shaunmcdonald:ericb2: the acceptance e-mails have been sent out

[22:21] shaunmcdonald:my cross-platform language pack talk was rejected

[22:21] shaunmcdonald:the buildbot talk was accepted

[22:22]ericb2:too bad for language packs

[22:22]ericb2:it is a great idea[22:22]• ericb2 propose to do some workshops on Mac port during OOoCon2007

[22:23]fheckl:ericb2: +1, though I don't know if I can attend

[22:23]ericb2:If I'm not wrong, Herbert Duerr will do a conf, but I have no news

[22:23] ericb2:from my side, I'll propose the third ( and probably last part) of the Mac port

[22:23] ericb2:it has been accepted

[22:24]shaunmcdonald:ericb2: I don't know what is happening with the lightning talks, as I think that was the main issue http://marketing.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadMsg?list=conference&msgNo=1900[22:24]• shaunmcdonald never got a response to that mail, that would have allowed extra people to present

[22:24]ericb2:fheckl: maybe organize the 3rd Mac porters meeting ( Hamburg as usual ) ?

[22:25]fheckl:ericb2: yes, good idea

[22:25]ericb2:fheckl: ok, I'll start to investigate

[22:25]shaunmcdonald:maybe in the Sun offices this year?

[22:25]dave_largo left the chat room. ("Client exiting")

[22:25]ericb2:shaunmcdonald: let's see ;)

[22:25] ericb2:shaunmcdonald: the most simple for a lot of people, indeed

[22:26]PhilippL:I can ask. Don't expect catering though :-)

[22:26]ericb2:PhilippL: I'll ask from my side too

[22:26]shaunmcdonald:PhilippL: You never know if you don't ask ;-)

[22:26]ericb2:other OOoCon 2007 news ?

[22:27] ericb2:paveljanik: will you present something ?

[22:27]• ericb2 has coc(o)a to pay

[22:27]paveljanik:ericb2: on OOoCon? no

[22:27]hub:I will be there

[22:28]paveljanik:This year, it is mh's turn ;-)

[22:28]hub:my paper has been accepted :-)

[22:28]ericb2:hub: great

[22:28]fheckl:ok, guys, safe journey back all WWDC participants, good night to the rest

[22:28]ericb2:Next point ?

[22:29] ericb2:fheckl: see you !

[22:29]PhilippL:fheckl: thanks, see you[22:29]fheckl left the chat room.

[22:30]shaunmcdonald:5. WWDC news (Eric Bachard + Philipp Lohmann, after 22:00 CEST -as soon the last appointment with Ernest Prabhackar is finished- )

[22:30]PhilippL:Hmm, the most of it you already got :-)

[22:30]ericb2:PhilippL: I got other infos

[22:31] ericb2:If we have some important issues, we can contact Deric Horn

[22:31] ericb2:for HI* things we can contact David McLeod

[22:32] ericb2:I asked for XCode issue : this is a bug, and we have to file a bug into the ' radar ' ( Apple IZ )

[22:32]PhilippL:Mr. Geleynse (sp?) was interested in snapshots.

[22:32]ericb2:about Java and HI* in main threads: don't expect things change

[22:32]shaunmcdonald:when will we produce the next snapshot of aqua?

[22:33]ericb2:shaunmcdonald: good question

[22:33]shaunmcdonald:we were looking at waiting for the aquafilepicker to be integrated first

[22:33]PhilippL:suggestion: when aquavcl01 gets read for QA

[22:33]ericb2:• ericb2 propose to defines a list of 5 little issues to fix, and propose a new snapshot version

[22:34] ericb2:afterwards

[22:34]shaunmcdonald:PhilippL: maybe one extra before QA?

[22:35]ericb2:PhilippL: if we can provide before two weeks, I'd be ok, else, this is tooo long

[22:36]PhilippL:well, since pavel is already working on getting it ready for QA, I wouldn't expect that to be longer then 2 weeks ?

[22:36]ericb2:PhilippL: I hope so

[22:37]shaunmcdonald:paveljanik: can we have a list of things that need to be done for qa?

[22:37]paveljanik:PhilippL: uff, I think it will take at least 4 milestones my way. The brutal way of throwing it as it is now to QA is unacceptable for me.

[22:38]ericb2:Last news : I asked Ernest Prabhakar more contacts with Apple, and I'll keep you informed

[22:38]paveljanik:shaunmcdonald: once pj81 will be integrated and aquavcl01 resynced to it, I'll send a list.

[22:38]PhilippL:paveljanik: ? what's the problem ?

[22:38]shaunmcdonald:paveljanik: what is special about pj81?

[22:38]paveljanik:PhilippL: I prefer to code review all changes we have done.

[22:38]ericb2:e.g. : I'll provide a list of trusted people for updates, and people to contact for specific problems : Apple is interested with .odf support btw

[22:39]PhilippL:paveljanik: ah, ok

[22:39]paveljanik:shaunmcdonald: changes from aquavcl01, cleaned up, with proper issues, etc.

[22:39] paveljanik:when this is done, aquavcl01 is a bit smaller.

[22:39]shaunmcdonald:paveljanik: ah ok

[22:39]paveljanik:I hope to get the changes down to vcl and dtrans and few more modules.

[22:39]PhilippL:• PhilippL suggests to switch the default for AQUA_LOG to "off"

[22:39]ericb2:• ericb2 ok :)

[22:40]paveljanik:Then the QA will be much easier...

[22:40] paveljanik:for everyone.

[22:40] paveljanik:I'd like to prevent waiting two months for QA and then hearing: sorry, but no.

[22:40] paveljanik:This is why I asked for proper issues from now on.

[22:40] paveljanik:especially for new modules.

[22:40]PhilippL:I think we can have jogi involved in that.

[22:41]shaunmcdonald:is AQUA_LOG just the std output debuging info?

[22:41]PhilippL:yes

[22:41] PhilippL:we should switch it off per default

[22:41]shaunmcdonald:why not have it for the dev builds, but not the release builds?

[22:42]PhilippL:Unless somebody objects that will be my next commit

[22:42]PhilippL:you can switch it on by setting AQUA_LOG and personally i don't use it much anayway.

[22:42]shaunmcdonald:as an env var?

[22:42]PhilippL:yes.

[22:43]paveljanik:yes, the default should be off, devs can turn it on in their env ;-

[22:43]PhilippL:set it to "stderr" or a filename and logging gets done to there.

[22:43]paveljanik:we should also describe how to set it if we want to run OOo from Finder...

[22:43]shaunmcdonald:PhilippL: can you please update the wiki page with info on how to enable it?

[22:43]PhilippL:will do.

[22:43]ericb2:paveljanik: from XCode is should be possible

[22:44]paveljanik:from Finder.

[22:44]PhilippL:Moreover I'll remove the fprintfs in svmain.cxx ? (or nearby)

[22:44]paveljanik:PhilippL: yes.

[22:45] paveljanik:the less changes in aquavcl01 against the base milestone, the better ;-)

[22:45] paveljanik:ericb2: will you please clean the sal module locale related changes so they work with X11 as well?

[22:45] paveljanik:ericb2: preferably in the separate cws so it gets QA for Mac X11.

[22:46]ericb2:paveljanik: you mean adapt it (cosmetic changes) to make it build/work on X11 version, or modify the code because of uncompatibility ?

[22:47]paveljanik:ericb2: whatever is needed to make it work in X11 as well as in AQUA ;-)

[22:47]ericb2:paveljanik: Ok, I'll have a look.

[22:48]paveljanik:my current list is here: http://tmp.janik.cz/OpenOffice.org/MacOSX/aquavcl01-integration.txt

[22:48]ericb2:paveljanik: shall I create an issue for that ?

[22:48]paveljanik:ericb2: yes, please.

[22:48]ericb2:paveljanik: ok, I'll do

[22:49]paveljanik:Also the scp2 needs some love. I'm already in contact with obr.

[22:49] paveljanik:The directory renaming is something I'd like to test in separate cws as well.

[22:49] paveljanik:etc.etc.

[22:50]paveljanik:So many unrelated changes in one cws...

[22:50]• paveljanik hopes to get it done soon.

[22:51] paveljanik:that's all from me.

[22:51]ericb2:Next point ?

[22:52]shaunmcdonald:6. Any other business?

[22:52] shaunmcdonald:QA of 2.2.1

[22:52] shaunmcdonald:2 langs so far that I know of

[22:52]PhilippL:I don't know if it's possible for you but could we move these meetings away from Friday night ?

[22:52]shaunmcdonald:en-US has not been done

[22:53] shaunmcdonald:PhilippL: which night would you prefer?

[22:53]PhilippL:anything but friday or saturday

[22:53]paveljanik:what about Monday 6am Hamburg time? ;-)

[22:53] paveljanik: 8)

[22:53]PhilippL:even that would be better for me

[22:53]johanhenselmans:I did a automated test of nl, and contacted the local guy. I did not get a response. How should I proceed?

[22:53]ericb2:• ericb2 proposes IRC meeting during the week, at office hours, for technical issues

[22:54]shaunmcdonald:5am uk time :-(

[22:54] shaunmcdonald:johanhenselmans: file an issue

[22:54] shaunmcdonald:johanhenselmans: what about other nl OSes?

[22:54]johanhenselmans:They have been qa'ed

[22:54] johanhenselmans:By other people

[22:55]shaunmcdonald:johanhenselmans: do you think it is ok to release to the public?

[22:55]johanhenselmans:Well, I'd like some help from James to interpret the results, but I think the tests were all OK. They finished...

[22:56]shaunmcdonald:johanhenselmans: if so then you can just push them out

[22:56] shaunmcdonald:johanhenselmans: James is no longer doing QA for ooo as he has been spending more time on his real qa job

[22:57]johanhenselmans:So in that respect I would say go ahead, but I really think we should get some kind of authorization form the TCM or the local contact. I'll try to phone him on monday, and get somemthing going.

[22:57]shaunmcdonald:johanhenselmans: ask macjogi, he will help

[22:57]ismael_:good night

[22:57]johanhenselmans:macjogi? Who is macjogi?

[22:57]ericb2:ismael_: good night

[22:57]PhilippL:the same as solarisjogi, joerg sievers[22:57]ismael_ left the chat room.

[22:57]johanhenselmans:OK, I'll conact him.

[22:58]ericb2:paveljanik: you meant osxlocale.cxx changes ..etc ?

[22:58]shaunmcdonald:johanhenselmans: though he may be busy, as he only works on the mac in his spare time

[22:59]johanhenselmans:I'll try, and let you know in the next session what the result of my efforts were.

[22:59]ericb2:other points, or questions ?

[22:59]shaunmcdonald:next meeting?

[23:00] shaunmcdonald:pick a day of the week

[23:00]PhilippL:wednesday ?

[23:00]shaunmcdonald:PhilippL: works for me

[23:00]ericb2:PhilippL:, shaunmcdonald: 21:00 UTC / 23:00 ?

[23:00]PhilippL:ok for me.

[23:01]johanhenselmans:+1

[23:01]ericb2:shaunmcdonald: if the days changes, please drop a mail to mac@porting list

[23:01]shaunmcdonald:ericb2: no 20:00 utc

[23:01] shaunmcdonald:or even 19:00 utc

[23:01] shaunmcdonald:21:00 utc is too late

[23:01]PhilippL:yes, does anybody know what would work for ekato ?

[23:02]shaunmcdonald:PhilippL: good question

[23:02]ericb2:shaunmcdonald: 20:00 UTC == 22:00 Hamburg/Paris time, right ?

[23:02]johanhenselmans:Right.

[23:02]shaunmcdonald:I think that's why why we had the saturday afternoons

[23:02]ericb2:PhilippL: later it is, better it is for Etsushi

[23:03]shaunmcdonald:it is 7am in tokyo just now at 22:00utc

[23:03]ericb2:issue 78548

[23:03] ericb2:created

[23:03]IZBot:porting DEFECT NEW Adapt sal changes from aquavcl01 and make them work on X11 http://qa.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=78548

[23:03]shaunmcdonald:so I'm thinking early afternoon for us and evening for them

[23:04]ericb2:PhilippL: where are you btw ? I'm close to expresso bar, at 1st floor

[23:04]PhilippL:go south to the other end of the room :-)

[23:04]ericb2:no second floor ( Russian Hill ...etc )

[23:04] ericb2:PhilippL: I'll stop and join you in 5 minutes

[23:05] ericb2:can we consider the meeting is over ?